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http://www.twoamendments.com/vetting-a-firearms-instructor-and-how-to-spot-a-fraud/

 

 

 

I post this because my home gun forum has become a shill site for one training company including one of their own as an administrator.

 

The question was asked, and quickly deleted, who vets trainers?

How do you know you are getting the real deal?

 

 

 

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There are a ton of shitbags out there conducting training under false pretenses. Most civilian shooters paying for these "high speed" courses think they will be at the same level shooting-wise as SOF Operators at the end of the course. A seasoned Military shooter will see through the smoke and mirrors. Look at James Yeager. Small time LEO, fired, no Military experience, big time PSD contractor in Iraq, ran like a chicken when ambushed, two of his counterparts held their ground and perished while Yeager still didn't have his weapon operating and returning some hate to the bad guys. Now he is an internet gun guru sensation. (I know someone who was on that detail btw). All I can say is try to vet them out before wasting your hard earned cash. Google can be your friend. If they are reputable, they will have that represented on the net.

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Another way to tell is by the level of combat/tactical "stories" they give you -- most people who have seen the elephant do not want to revisit it except for rare times with their closest friends. Imo, the more a person talks about how badass they are, the more you should ignore them.

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^^^ Yep, used to call them PX rangers. My own brother in law is one, a radar tech who apparently saw every piece of action in theater and kicked in thousands of doors but never made it above E-3. I can't even be in the same room with that guy having lost friends right next to me. Makes me sick.

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Part of the problem IMO are the people shopping for classes. Especially males. They think they know everything cuz they went hunting with their dad. So the quicker they get in and out, the better. Plus, nobody in this modern world has the time to spend a whole day or even two learning new things or even just enough to keep their asses from going to jail or worse yet killing someone.

 

One of the things I tell friends that are interested in CCW is that if the class is any shorter than one full day, don't go. There is simply too much info to get this done in a 4 hour class and still get any range time in which is equally important, IMO.

 

Online classes should be outlawed. Or at the minimum any sheriff should laugh at an online cert.

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I wonder who trained John Moses Browning to design guns? Did he have a certificate? With his track record, I'll bet he went to all sorts of classes and had certificates hanging all over his walls. Pffffft.

 

Tony Rumore

Tromix

Maybe I misunderstood the thread. I thought the OP was talking about CCW???

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Exactly! Many of us are self taught in what we do. Experience is what counts AND being able to instruct. I know many instructors who are world class shooters or highly experience operators, but they do not have the ability to actually TEACH!

 

Jack

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What are we talking about here ? Is it Basic CCW for personal protection or some Para Police combat training?

I think Clearing rooms and offensive shooting is a disconnect from the main intention of carrying a gun for personal protection.

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I understand your point .Here in Fl you can go to a gun show and in a few hours and shooting one shot out of a revolver you get your certificate. Personal protection is so much more and carrying a gun is just a small part of it.

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There was, and maybe still is, a huge market for self defense, tactical, "Real World" Training. A lot of people jumped on board and tried to make some bucks off of the trend. Many of them were completely incompetent, regardless of what their resume or prior military experience, or how many deployments they may have had.

 

We have a similar, newly formed Company locally who advertise themselves as self defense instructions, etc. I know some of the LEO guys they use and these guys are lucky when they don't shoot each other. Two of them have accidentally shot themselves before. One while drawing the pistol from the holster and strangely enough, the other guy while re-holstering!booo.gif

 

Have personally never paid for any type of firearms training, as I have been involved with shooting/instruction initially since my teenage years, 30 years of competition and my military experience, but I would be very wary of these people who have the big advertising, woofing shit type websites and advertising.

 

I have always said, you can sell dog shit to people, if you market and advertise it properly.

 

Word of mouth is usually the best advertising pro or con, but like the OP said in his original post, these guys kinda took over the forum. Normally the frauds will get called out eventually, but sometimes the ass holes actually seem to succeed!

 

Jack

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These "CLASSES" for CHP is just cover for the gobmit. Give me the information that the gobmit says I gotta have, leme demonstrate that I can put holes in paper.....and then leave me the fuck alone...oh yeah, here's the money that you and you and you want.

 

What the fuck happened to GOD GIVEN RIGHT....classes my fuken ass scorn.gif

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Ive sat through exactly two of these CHP classes.

 

I amuse myself by asking good questions to which I already know the answer.

Thats my benchmark.

Driving through or living within victim... er gun free zones is one.

 

 

I also am constantly amazed that half the people there have not already shot themselves in the foot.

But I do offer advice to any that seem to have a good mind and just need a bit of help getting started after class.

The others? I just give a wide berth.

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I wonder who trained John Moses Browning to design guns? Did he have a certificate? With his track record, I'll bet he went to all sorts of classes and had certificates hanging all over his walls. Pffffft.

 

Tony Rumore

Tromix

He did not have a certificate but was a master gunsmith because of the levels he worked up from apprentice. His father was a master gunsmith. Skilled trade vs profession.

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There is a class locally I'm thinking of signing up for. They list themselves as a "tactical shooting class", but it's all real world scenarios from instructors who've been in these situations. They are all certified by both the NRA and local LEO. However, they will tell you straight up the $75 and 500+ rounds only teach you the basics. It's up to YOU to practice and perfect your art.

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I'm for being skeptical of bragging, not giving youtube attention to douches and braggarts, and learning wherever you can.

 

I know guys from military & LEO who can't shoot and barely know which end to hold. I know old guys who can stand still and print tight little pictures. I don't know pretty much anyone who can really do something like IDPA. The best I have access to, time and funds is to watch anyone on line who looks like they know what they are doing and mock up a course and see what works.

 

I really like the notion of competition as R&D and shake down. Military and LEO give you a good notion of what gets annoying and in the way for carrying all day. Critical gear nerd guys who go out of their way to abuse guns are kinda ridiculous, but they give a bit of good info too. Nutnconcise for example takes himself so seriously that there is no need for me to, but on the other hand if he says he drug a scope behind him through the mud for 14 miles of combat rolls or something like that, I will roll my eyes but believe the gear is solid. I'd probably have a fun time running around with him learning how out of shape I am too. I think any time spent with people who competently and safely handle their firearms is valuable. If you actually measure your performance and adapt, you can't help but get better whatever learning system you use. If you just go out and see how fast you can wiggle your index finger while pointing in the general direction of an old TV, you can't help but cement bad habits and overconfidence.

 

I am sure I could learn a lot from most of the decent instruction courses like Clint Smith or Travis Haley... and many others. I could probably learn a lot from Yeager even if I have a very hard time respecting someone who postures so hard. But I'd sure rather spend my money learning from someone else or running 3 gun. I can also learn on my own and with friends. If I get good enough I'll start teaching classes on Equilibrium-Fu Systema (tm pending), and become a business member!

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I’ve given this some more thought and the easiest way to spot a fraud Billy badass instructor would be if it’s me or anyone like me.

  1. Retired military, but not a ground combat job
  2. Desert Storm, but again not a ground combat job (no shots fired)
  3. Qualified expert on several weapons in the military, so what just about anyone can (had a lot of weapons training in the military of course most of it was in nuclear weapons, not really a great concealed carry type thing)
  4. Shoots / has shot several types of competition, but again so what just about anyone can, plus not the champion at any of these competitions
  5. Knows something about guns, equipment, and ballistics so what might be blowing smoke and / or be wrong (my name is not Browning or even John)

While I’m still a good enough shooter that I can impress most non shooters and some with less trigger time, but I shoot with a butt load of better shooters and paper targets don’t shoot back. I can show someone the basics of marksmanship, or how to play some of the shooting sports, get them started in breaking clays but if they want to go badass I’m not the guy to talk to.

Edited by the 4th Doctor
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You mad bro?

Nope, not mad, that's for dogs and x-wives bad_smile.gif

 

I just think it's a damn shame that we are having a conversation about shitty instructors for something that should be second nature to all of us, and....

 

AA there is a bright side to this . Years ago nobody was allowed to carry and now its in over 40 states.

 

That we should be grateful to lord gubmit for allowing us the privilege to conceal carry, I do realize that's not how you meant this Jerry52.

 

And yes I do realize that I'm preaching to the choir, but then again, some young folks might not realize that these are supposed to be inalienable rights, GOD GIVEN, and we just fucked them away to a bunch of self serving politicians.

 

rant/

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A DD-214 can clear things up easily.

 

I sent my wife here. It appears to be legit! smile.png

 

http://northernlightstraininggroup.com/

 

 

a 94B (cook) gets a DD214.

 

these so called "training sites" for civilians are nothing more wannabe fantasy camps. the legit ones don't allow anyone that has a set of camo, a rifle and their checks clears on them, they are either for private security firms, gov't security, ie state dept security , police, etc...

 

this is the most accurate description of those so called "training site"

 

FANTASY CAMP for WANNABES

 

 

 

if you are fat, have low self -esteem, and never seen a day in military service, but always consider yourself as a "operator", because you like dressing up in camouflage and wear tactical gear and you spent a boat load of money putting every MAGPUL crap on your AR15, and watched the HURT LOCKER at least 20 times and feel like you were right there "in the mix". well here is your chance to take that fantasy of yours and play Army, like you did when you were 6 years old. only this time, it's going to cost you 800 dollars that does not include airfare, lodging, meals or the price of ammo, which by the way we do sell at our "base camp" at 4 times the retail price.

 

all of our "instructors" are just as clueless as you are, but they all passed a background check and are not felons, so they can be around and handle firearms. their main job is not to 'train" you, but to make you run around from one place to another, shooting at silhouette targets, and make you think that you are getting "good training", and to push you into buying our Chinese made crap tactical gear, DVDs, pamphlets and books, and to push you to sign up for the "advance operator course", which cost a lot more money, but you are such a "fast learner" and did extremely well at the basic level, that we decided to give you this opportunity that we rarely give to just anybody, this offer is only open to few select people that went through the "basic course", by "select few" we mean everybody that went through, providing their checks don't bounce.

 

 

at the end of the course you will receive a certificate of training (suitable for framing), that we print off our computer using MICROSOFT WORD certificate template.

Edited by Matthew Hopkins
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Word of mouth is usually the best advertising pro or con, but like the OP said in his original post, these guys kinda took over the forum. Normally the frauds will get called out eventually, but sometimes the ass holes actually seem to succeed!

 

The signal to noise ratio of a forum almost always suffers when the advertisers are calling the shots. Whether they are selling stuff, services, or training. Forum quality almost always improves when things are run with the philosophy that the vendors should be grateful that the users provide them an audience, rather than the vendors pay the bills so they get what they want.

Edited by Netpackrat
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A DD-214 can clear things up easily.

 

 

 

a 94B (cook) gets a DD214.

 

Give a DD214 to someone who has never been in service and it will confuse them -- Give a DD214 to someone who has served and you have given them your resume... If not doctored, it will tell the tale to a high degree (I know, I know -- medal inflation and all that aside...).

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There are a lot of people who offer training out there. Some of it is crap some of it is pretty damn good. People should just choose what kind of training they really need. 95% of the people don't need or will ever need tactical operator training. My training is my training. What i have learned i hold on too and i don't push training on anyone. I spent my last tour as a weapons instructor at Paris Island Weapons Training Battalion. I am not a sniper, but I can damn near teach anyone how to shoot. I have seen some amazing shooters and some seriously incompetent shooters roll through my firing line. Bottom line as far as marksmanship is concerned is this, if all you ever take is a simple CCW class, your that much better off having taken it. It won't make you an "operator" or won't make you a "commando" but it probably wont hurt. The more training the better. Just try to filter the "crap" out your training regiment.

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There are a lot of people who offer training out there. Some of it is crap some of it is pretty damn good. People should just choose what kind of training they really need. 95% of the people don't need or will ever need tactical operator training. My training is my training. What i have learned i hold on too and i don't push training on anyone. I spent my last tour as a weapons instructor at Paris Island Weapons Training Battalion. I am not a sniper, but I can damn near teach anyone how to shoot. I have seen some amazing shooters and some seriously incompetent shooters roll through my firing line. Bottom line as far as marksmanship is concerned is this, if all you ever take is a simple CCW class, your that much better off having taken it. It won't make you an "operator" or won't make you a "commando" but it probably wont hurt. The more training the better. Just try to filter the "crap" out your training regiment.

^^^^^I agree with this approach. For me, I'm okay to be able to kill and prepare my own dinner, protect me and mine if need be, and maintain and shoot a variety of firearms to an acceptable level for me. I don't really give two pokes up a donkey's ass what anyone else thinks or has to say about my condition of readiness, or perhaps the lack thereof. I grew up with a shotgun in my arms hunting with family members, member of the local conversation club, and have always been a good shot, a natural I guess. The engineer in me loves firearms smile.png I have the elements of readiness that I feel comfortable with for now, or am able to afford and I think each of us needs to make those decisions on a personal level. The flashy know it all "mine is the only real way" fukers turn me off real quick, there's plenty to learn from folks, but I can't stand a damn know it all.

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A DD-214 can clear things up easily.

 

 

a 94B (cook) gets a DD214.

Give a DD214 to someone who has never been in service and it will confuse them -- Give a DD214 to someone who has served and you have given them your resume... If not doctored, it will tell the tale to a high degree (I know, I know -- medal inflation and all that aside...).
+100
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