11" Saiga 12 SBS with full length gas system - Brutus

[lelandeod 179]

...Oh boy, this one's going to be interesting.  

 

This is a customer gun I'm working on right now.  We are venturing to build this S-12 with a full length gas system on an 11" barrel, which is going to be a challenge.  Now, the only ammunition we want this sucker to cycle is Military 00 Buck.  But, I think it's still going to be a lot of work to get Brutus cycling with only 2" of distance between the ports and the muzzle.  

 

Anyway, here are a few photos of the current mockup:

 

 

 

 

Wish me luck!

[Nephilim7 107]

I would think such a short gas time would make it very finnicky with ammo, even ammo specific. On top of that, powder can be very finnicky about consistency especially with temperature and different lots. I'm sure it can be made to function alright, but why not build reliability into it by moving gas system back? Before I converted my S12, it would only run certain ammo reliably if that ammo was left in the hot sun for a few minutes.

 

Also, should this be in the NFA section? I don't mind it being here, but it may become a very useful thread for the NFA guys after someone other than me posts in it!

 

Nice looking gun, BTW! Wish I were a 'smith...

Edited September 24, 2013 by Nephilim7

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Lee it'll run on your standard bulk Federal with 5 ports. My buddy and I did the same length last year about this time. Actually we first took it down to 12" and then decided it was still cycling well enough to go ahead and lop another inch off it. 11" is about it though if you still want to get to the gas plug without removing the barrel attachment. We got it running pretty good with nothing on the threads and then just to make sure it stayed reliable put a winchoke adapter & full choke on there. It was smooth sailing with the 3 dram Federal 7.5 2000 FPS ammo from there. Of course it runs buck & slugs like a champ with with no choke at all. BTW that was even with a Kicklite recoil reducing stock so you could get even better results with yours.

[lelandeod 179]

The customer specifically wanted to stay with the full length gas system, I presume to maintain the killer Russian hand guard.  

Shannon, that's good news.  I told the client that this would be a bit of an experiment from the get go as SBS's are not my usual thing.  But, I do have a SOT, so I may as well give it a try!  This shotgun only has 3 factory gas ports so I'm not sure how to drill two more and keep them in a pattern tight enough to work with the gas block.  ...we'll see.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Is there room to stagger two more behind the center hole?

[TonyRumore 1,332]

Since the Russians like to drill the holes in no apparent regular pattern, you just have to look at what you have, and squeeze in more ports wherever you can.

 

I have found that if you have four ports in the classic diamond pattern, that is not good for allowing more ports to be added.  It's better if you have less than 4 to begin with, and being off center helps a bit too.

 

Tony

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

...Oh boy, this one's going to be interesting.  

 

 

 

Wish me luck!

 

 

good luck.  look at it this way, if he would have went 13 inches, instead of 11, then you  wouldn't have money coming into your pocket, time + engineering = lot of money.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Matthew Hopkins

[lelandeod 179]

Brutus is done.  This is now my favorite Saiga 12 of all time.  All it needs is a Russian mag well.  

 

 

 

 

[beefcakeb99 572]

Any chance at pics of that hg retainer or is this trade secret?

[gregomega 929]

Any chance at pics of that hg retainer or is this trade secret?

Looks like a Dinzag/Kvar but could be wrong

[Eric Pate 478]

Looks pretty sweet. I'm really liking these "minimalist" shorty builds.

 

I keep trying to tell myself I don't need another S12 SBS ...

[ec4321 113]

Good work Lee. 

Makes me want another SBS or another custom Vepr build. Hmmmmmm... 

[beefcakeb99 572]

 

Any chance at pics of that hg retainer or is this trade secret?

Looks like a Dinzag/Kvar but could be wrong

 

not sure those two are very similar... But curious nonetheless

[Azkamidaka 26]

Such a sick folder, I've still got a 12k project going on that I need to get looking this way. Hope Brutus fires well.

[lelandeod 179]

Thanks for the kind words, guys.  It was a neat project.  The only thing left to do is to turn down the gas knob on a lathe to try and get it to clear the flash hider for removal.  Right now, I have to unscrew the FH to get the knob completely removed.  

 

I don't know the origin of the hand guard retainer as it was customer supplied, along with the super-sweet AK9 hand guard.  I do know that I want to build another one for myself now though!

[beefcakeb99 572]

Yea the ak9 hg is tits. But damn you gotta pay to play.

[Run and Gun 25]

Cool build! I really like the look of the shotgun.

[gunfun 3,931]

Very pretty.

[pedal2alloy 206]

Yea the ak9 hg is tits. But damn you gotta pay to play.

 

That hand guard is not really worth it when you consider that you have to pull out the heat shield, the side rail is mostly useless and the bottom rail, you can bolt on a piece of rail to a Bulgarian ($31) or K-Var U.S. made one.  And the K-Var includes the top rail

[lelandeod 179]

 

Yea the ak9 hg is tits. But damn you gotta pay to play.

 

That hand guard is not really worth it when you consider that you have to pull out the heat shield, the side rail is mostly useless and the bottom rail, you can bolt on a piece of rail to a Bulgarian ($31) or K-Var U.S. made one.  And the K-Var includes the top rail

 

You show me another polymer AK hand guard that fits a S-12 and I'll get very excited.  The ribs are molded shallower on the AK9 hand guards (like the IZ-433) and clear the larger 12 gauge barrel.  A standard AK hand guard won't work on a shotgun. 

[pedal2alloy 206]

 

 

Yea the ak9 hg is tits. But damn you gotta pay to play.

 

That hand guard is not really worth it when you consider that you have to pull out the heat shield, the side rail is mostly useless and the bottom rail, you can bolt on a piece of rail to a Bulgarian ($31) or K-Var U.S. made one.  And the K-Var includes the top rail

 

You show me another polymer AK hand guard that fits a S-12 and I'll get very excited.  The ribs are molded shallower on the AK9 hand guards (like the IZ-433) and clear the larger 12 gauge barrel.  A standard AK hand guard won't work on a shotgun. 

 

 

The 2 I mentioned from K-Var will fit

[lelandeod 179]

 

 

 

Yea the ak9 hg is tits. But damn you gotta pay to play.

 

That hand guard is not really worth it when you consider that you have to pull out the heat shield, the side rail is mostly useless and the bottom rail, you can bolt on a piece of rail to a Bulgarian ($31) or K-Var U.S. made one.  And the K-Var includes the top rail

 

You show me another polymer AK hand guard that fits a S-12 and I'll get very excited.  The ribs are molded shallower on the AK9 hand guards (like the IZ-433) and clear the larger 12 gauge barrel.  A standard AK hand guard won't work on a shotgun. 

 

 

The 2 I mentioned from K-Var will fit

 

Do you have any photos?  I'm being a skeptic as I've never seen a polymer AK74 hand guard that fits a S-12 other than the AK9 and the hand guards Izhmash is putting on the IZ-433 series shotguns.  I went through K-Var's catalog again and didn't see anything that looks like it's work but they aren't exactly known for having in-depth product details.

 

Also, I'm not talking about the RPK style hand guard; I'm wanting to get a hand full of poly AK74 style hand guards that'll fit over the shotgun barrel. 

[beefcakeb99 572]

Hell yes me too. I've got the kvar retainer and want this to happen.

[pedal2alloy 206]

This is one of the K-Var regular AK hand guards that was modified by Dinzag.  He has a router table setup that does the exact grind that is needed to clear the barrel.

 

The grind is only necessary at the part close to the receiver where the barrel is fatter.

 

So it can be made to fit, but LelandEOD is correct that the ribs are deeper and you can see where the grind actually does get close to going thru on 2 of the ribs, but it really isn't noticeable and there is still enough meat on the ribs to tolerate it.

 

There is also a grind done to the tab that inserts into the front trunnion

 

But the one other thing you will need is a front retainer bracket.  You can make one out of an AK one (the first person to do that was Cobra back in the day with some serious WECSOG dremmeling and welding) or you can buy this one from Dinzag

[saltydecimator 482]

Ya can do with wood rommy g grips

[gunfun 3,931]

I've done a couple Bulgarian AK74 wood, and a lot of material has to go. I also modifed Bulgy 74 retainers, and could only reccommend using either dinzag's retainer or the one made by KVAR. It's not worth the trouble.

[45Bretired 19]

So did the SBS with the full length gas system run? I saw the pics and it looks great but didn't see anything about how it functioned or what ammo it liked. just curious.

Edited December 8, 2013 by 45Bretired

[beefcakeb99 572]

Yea! lets see some video!

[lelandeod 179]

It cycles 2-2/4" Federal, Olin/WInchester 00 Buck like a champ.  That's all I've really tested it with as that's specifically what the client wanted it to shoot.  I did run some loose 7-1/2 value pack through it and was getting frequent FTE's, as I sort of expected.

 

I would love to do a day with some video but right now I don't have the time and the weather in Reno is miserable.  Of course, I'll have this SBS for several more months while the Form 4 clears, so with the owner's permission, I may take it out one afternoon and do a short video.

[Blue Flash 0]

I am working on a similar build with the same barrel length except I will be using the shortened Tromix gas tube and piston. Does anybody know where I can get a black polymer handguard that will fit the shortened gas system. Ideally, I'd like to keep the rail system that attaches to the gas block and barrel (see attached picture).