side by side comparison of T&N and Firebird pistol grip adapters

[james lambert 3,059]

In this section I'll show and discuss the differences between the Tooth and Nail Armory pistol grip adapter, and the Firebird pistol grip adapter.

 

In the T&N design, the pistol grip adapter freely falls into the lower from above, and is retained by a small shoulder measuring a mere .032" thick. It is held in place by the pistol grip and pistol grip screw. It is identical in design to the original Tromix pistol grip adapter, with the exception of the thickness of the retention shoulder.  The Tromix adapter had a substantially more robust shoulder, but keep in mind this feature protrudes into the fire control cavity above the level of the floor, thus actually raising the floor of the cavity and changing the fire control geometry. The floor is the correct geometry to base the design of your fire control group. In some cases, the trigger being raised by this change in floor level created interference with the safety, as well as substantially decreased engagement of the primary sear. This is why there have been posts on this forum about people having to grind their safety or trigger to get their gun to function.  In any case, making these modifications have no corrective effect at the reduced sear engagement.

 

In the Firebird design, the correct geometric floor of the fire control cavity is maintained. The forward face of the adapter has a heavy tang that interfaces into a recess in the MKA lower mold, and the rear of the adapter has an extremely robust section that interfaces with a large internal radius in the lower as well as a 10-32 retention screw to completely solidify the installation. It may be noted this is a patented part. It also features a secondary hole next to the pistol grip screw hole which will allow a gunsmith or someone with competent knowledge of AR-15 fire control groups to precisely set primary sear engagement values. Again, the Firebird component is not painted, instead it is milspec hard anodized.

 

The Tooth and Nail example shown is from a customer's gun with approximately 80 rounds fired. The Firebird example shown is from Anubis' old polymer lower that had thousands of rounds downrange.

 

 

 

 

In this last close-up image, you can see that the .032" shoulder on the Tooth and Nail adapter is beginning to shear. This was taken from a customer's gun built by Tooth and Nail with only 80 rounds down range.

 

[toothandnail 275]

In this section I'll show and discuss the differences between the Tooth and Nail Armory pistol grip adapter, and the Firebird pistol grip adapter.

 

In the T&N design, the pistol grip adapter freely falls into the lower from above, and is retained by a small shoulder measuring a mere .032" thick. It is held in place by the pistol grip and pistol grip screw. It is identical in design to the original Tromix pistol grip adapter, with the exception of the thickness of the retention shoulder.  The Tromix adapter had a substantially more robust shoulder, but keep in mind this feature protrudes into the fire control cavity above the level of the floor, thus actually raising the floor of the cavity and changing the fire control geometry. The floor is the correct geometry to base the design of your fire control group. In some cases, the trigger being raised by this change in floor level created interference with the safety, as well as substantially decreased engagement of the primary sear. This is why there have been posts on this forum about people having to grind their safety or trigger to get their gun to function.  In any case, making these modifications have no corrective effect at the reduced sear engagement.

 

In the Firebird design, the correct geometric floor of the fire control cavity is maintained. The forward face of the adapter has a heavy tang that interfaces into a recess in the MKA lower mold, and the rear of the adapter has an extremely robust section that interfaces with a large internal radius in the lower as well as a 10-32 retention screw to completely solidify the installation. It may be noted this is a patented part. It also features a secondary hole next to the pistol grip screw hole which will allow a gunsmith or someone with competent knowledge of AR-15 fire control groups to precisely set primary sear engagement values. Again, the Firebird component is not painted, instead it is milspec hard anodized.

 

The Tooth and Nail example shown is from a customer's gun with approximately 80 rounds fired. The Firebird example shown is from Anubis' old polymer lower that had thousands of rounds downrange.

 

IMG_0699.JPG

 

IMG_0703.JPG

 

IMG_0705.JPG

 

In this last close-up image, you can see that the .032" shoulder on the Tooth and Nail adapter is beginning to shear. This was taken from a customer's gun built by Tooth and Nail with only 80 rounds down range.

 

IMG_0647.JPG

 

 

If a customer had an issue with our parts they should have contacted us. We stand behind our product 100%. The adapter shown must have slipped through QC which happens from time to time with any business. We have many guns here in our shop that have several 1000 rds through them using the exact same adapter with no issues what so ever. What do you intend to accomplish by posting this? Maybe sway a few customers your way because we had a few QC issues that could have easily been fixed had the customer contact us? Normally business's tend to their business and nothing else. They let their products speak for themselves without the need to intervene. Your business has obviously taken a hit since we started and you are pissed about it. We market our products to the average consumer, the mass market. You want the mass market to pay a premium when they shouldn't have to just because you were the first guy on the scene. You want to be the only one making parts for this platform and I hate to say it but that time is over. The more popular this platform becomes the more companies are going to jump on board and begin making parts for it. Once again you and your company have shown your true colors. Hopefully one day the drama that you create will subside and you can do business like a man not a child.

[james lambert 3,059]

It is common practice for companies to show their products side by side with others so the customer can see what they're getting and make educated choices.

 

I don't understand why you're getting so upset, we're not talking bad about you in any way, just showing the differences in our products.

[Tom in Texas 0]

It is common practice for companies to show their products side by side with others so the customer can see what they're getting and make educated choices.

 

I don't understand why you're getting so upset, we're not talking bad about you in any way, just showing the differences in our products.

So Jim, if I wanted to do business with your company, can I order from your website? What are your days on hand of inventory (can I get parts quickly or do I have to wait)? Are you competitively priced?

 

Usually a marketing strategy isn't so geared toward attacking the competition. Consumer Reports does side by sides as they are an unbiased party. When a biased party does it, it and they lose credibility.

[haugpatr 972]

It is in really poor taste for Firebird to attack a business member on this forum and especially tacky to spam the boards with multiple threads. This series of posts really makes Firebird look bad. I also remember a Firebird employee talking trash on this forum. It reminds me of the douche bags at Alliance Armament.

 

A top notch builder would be too busy to make posts like this on a forum, Firebird obviously has plenty of free time, that is what most people will take away from this thread.

 

 

[james lambert 3,059]

Showing parts side by side with honest descriptions is Hardly attacking.

 

Attacking is what the groupies have done to us at every chance when we have been so evil and bold, as to point out when T&N has blatently copied other peoples designs. 

 

I would be thrilled to send the T&N gun that was sent to us by a T&N customer, and one of our guns to an independent Engineer

And have a thorough evaluation of ALL the parts done.

 

 

I am attacking no one, just comparing the parts, no one should be upset with what their work shows or how it stacks up against other options.

 

Its a what you see is what you get kind of  thing

Jim

[KIRCH76 12]

I am glad I never and will never buy any fireturd parts.  You guys are an embarrassment to this business.   All you guys ever do is attack Matt.  He has never said a thing about your product yet you just keep trying to make him look bad.   Just keep doing what your doing Jim and you are going to push yourself right out of this business.   As far as I'm concerned your company is dead to me.   

Edited October 2, 2013 by KIRCH76

[KIRCH76 12]

Btw I am not saying your product is bad Jim. I just don't like how you treat other business members.  Or in the beginning when I tried to buy parts from you because you were the only choice. I had to deal with your rude company (Nancy)  who pretty much made me feel like I was a no body so I was not getting parts any time soon.   So since your company is so superior why don't you get off this forum and make your own forum so you can beat up competition there 

[james lambert 3,059]

So its ok to steal other peoples designs...even ones with valid patents on them capitalize on them

Have minions twist the truth to make us look like the offenders  when we dare to defend our property.

 

And now we just plainly show the difference in two peoples products....oh thats just terrible and you see that as an attack...ROFLMAO

I am sure you would try to defend your own property...but that would be different ....Right?

 

I am sure lots of people will like seeing the difference in the parts.

Some will no doubt choose the lowest bidder.

Some will opt for more.

 

In any event they will be able to see the difference with no doubt on what they will get.

Jim

[CalveryDemon 4]

To quote a smart HOG

 

"A top notch builder would be too busy to make posts like this on a forum, Firebird obviously has plenty of free time, that is what most people will take away from this thread."

 

I have products from both companies; all satisfactory except the Firebird lower (has a jacked up bolt / mag release).  Build some shit and kill the drama. .  Even "IF" you build a superior product, your shooting your damn self in the foot for your lack of tack.  Professionalism, GET SOME.

Edited October 2, 2013 by CalveryDemon

[Tom in Texas 0]

So its ok to steal other peoples designs...even ones with valid patents on them capitalize on them

Have minions twist the truth to make us look like the offenders  when we dare to defend our property.

 

And now we just plainly show the difference in two peoples products....oh thats just terrible and you see that as an attack...ROFLMAO

I am sure you would try to defend your own property...but that would be different ....Right?

 

I am sure lots of people will like seeing the difference in the parts.

Some will no doubt choose the lowest bidder.

Some will opt for more.

 

In any event they will be able to see the difference with no doubt on what they will get.

Jim

If it were me you were claiming these things about, you'd be legally made to back up your words, as if you are incorrect in the least, they are libelous. The fact that you air this out on a public forum leads me to believe that most of it is nonsense.

 

The lack of self awareness is astounding. Think about how it comes across when you post multiple new threads going after a competitor. Then combine that with the history of your employee's attacks. Maybe you'd get shipments out faster if you weren't on here stirring up trouble.

 

Your products could be the best in the world and cheaper than anyone else - you will lose customers if you continue this.

[KIRCH76 12]

Minion... Ha that's funny.  I actually only have 2 of matts parts the rest are actually tromix.  So I am in no way connected to matt.  I don't know how your customer service is now but it flat our sucked when you first started producing Mka parts.   It looks like you are desperate to sell your parts because matt is taking over the Mka market.  Customer service has a lot to do with my hatred toward your company.   I have never owned your product so I can not speak for quality but I would rather sacrifice that for the best customer service I have ever dealt with.   So I say Yall just run your business and let your product supply and customer service speak for itself.  You have no business comparing someone else's product.  Of course you are going to make your product seem far superior. They might be but and unbiased opinion is what we need.   

[Rebel Katt 6]

Minion... Ha that's funny.  I actually only have 2 of matts parts the rest are actually tromix.  So I am in no way connected to matt.  I don't know how your customer service is now but it flat our sucked when you first started producing Mka parts.   It looks like you are desperate to sell your parts because matt is taking over the Mka market.  Customer service has a lot to do with my hatred toward your company.   I have never owned your product so I can not speak for quality but I would rather sacrifice that for the best customer service I have ever dealt with.   So I say Yall just run your business and let your product supply and customer service speak for itself.  You have no business comparing someone else's product.  Of course you are going to make your product seem far superior. They might be but and unbiased opinion is what we need.   

Well now Kirch76, you actually do come across as biased I gotta say. You've done your share of FB bashing on this forum. But anyway, there is a company in Denver I believe, called Entropy Limited who do the kind of side by side product testing that might be needed to settle this...

 

RK

[KIRCH76 12]

But I am not comparing 2 parts RK.   My decision to not use fb is all based on first impression of the company a while back.  They in no way cared about customer service because they had nobody to compete with.   A lot of you people who like fb probably did not even own an Mka back then.  I bought mine before anyone was even making parts.   I was almost ready to sell it because no one was making progress on making parts.   Like I said I am not bashing fb parts.   I am bashing them because of quality.... From his reviews (finally explaining his product) on his products they sound good.  BUT I can not bring myself to buy from him because the way I was treated 

Edited October 2, 2013 by KIRCH76

[Rebel Katt 6]

 

So its ok to steal other peoples designs...even ones with valid patents on them capitalize on them

Have minions twist the truth to make us look like the offenders  when we dare to defend our property.

 

And now we just plainly show the difference in two peoples products....oh thats just terrible and you see that as an attack...ROFLMAO

I am sure you would try to defend your own property...but that would be different ....Right?

 

I am sure lots of people will like seeing the difference in the parts.

Some will no doubt choose the lowest bidder.

Some will opt for more.

 

In any event they will be able to see the difference with no doubt on what they will get.

Jim

If it were me you were claiming these things about, you'd be legally made to back up your words, as if you are incorrect in the least, they are libelous. The fact that you air this out on a public forum leads me to believe that most of it is nonsense.

 

The lack of self awareness is astounding. Think about how it comes across when you post multiple new threads going after a competitor. Then combine that with the history of your employee's attacks. Maybe you'd get shipments out faster if you weren't on here stirring up trouble.

 

Your products could be the best in the world and cheaper than anyone else - you will lose customers if you continue this.

 

I get the feeling he hasn't lost any business. And can assure you that even some on this forum have become convinced that his parts are of a higher quality.

 

Just saying...

 

RK

[ShadowFire 220]

I'm not sure, that other adapter indicates it has been tampered with.  The lack of paint/manganese phosphate/black anodizing (Whatever you might want to call it) doesn't seem like a natural wear mark.  It's wear mark is centrally focused to the area in question which suggests to me that it may have been tampered with by using a pair of pliers.

 

Now I won't say it's an accusation, stuff happens but I will be objective here.  It is something of note.

[Rebel Katt 6]

 

It is common practice for companies to show their products side by side with others so the customer can see what they're getting and make educated choices.

 

I don't understand why you're getting so upset, we're not talking bad about you in any way, just showing the differences in our products.

So Jim, if I wanted to do business with your company, can I order from your website? What are your days on hand of inventory (can I get parts quickly or do I have to wait)? Are you competitively priced?

 

Usually a marketing strategy isn't so geared toward attacking the competition. Consumer Reports does side by sides as they are an unbiased party. When a biased party does it, it and they lose credibility.

 

But you're looking at it from a biased veiwpoint. I don't see it as an attack at all, but just a good old-fashioned side-by-side. Kinda like Coke Vs Pepsi. Do you see those ads as an attack?

No, I didn't think so.

 

RK

[CalveryDemon 4]

<-- Don't question it, he (FB) has indeed lost business. Allegations to defame a fellow business instead of standing on your principles is the only proof I need. Id rather give my money to someone I can respect.

Edited October 2, 2013 by CalveryDemon

[Tom in Texas 0]

 

 

It is common practice for companies to show their products side by side with others so the customer can see what they're getting and make educated choices.

 

I don't understand why you're getting so upset, we're not talking bad about you in any way, just showing the differences in our products.

 

So Jim, if I wanted to do business with your company, can I order from your website? What are your days on hand of inventory (can I get parts quickly or do I have to wait)? Are you competitively priced?

Usually a marketing strategy isn't so geared toward attacking the competition. Consumer Reports does side by sides as they are an unbiased party. When a biased party does it, it and they lose credibility.

But you're looking at it from a biased veiwpoint. I don't see it as an attack at all, but just a good old-fashioned side-by-side. Kinda like Coke Vs Pepsi. Do you see those ads as an attack?

No, I didn't think so.

 

RK

It's good old fashioned side by side, then the jabs and accusations start of copying start flying. In written form. Where they can be used to prove libel...I'm just astonished, more than anything else. The naïveté of how to operate a business and what to do or not do with respect to mentioning competitor products is running rampant.

 

And judging from your prior posts about FB, you may be the one with bias.

[Rebel Katt 6]

And judging from your prior posts about FB, you may be the one with bias.

 

Not at all Tom. I just like knowing my money has been used to the best of its (dwindling) value.

 

RK

[james lambert 3,059]

Have no doubt, I can prove when all my parts were first made!

Jim

[james lambert 3,059]

<-- Don't question it, he (FB) has indeed lost business. Allegations to defame a fellow business instead of standing on your principles is the only proof I need. Id rather give my money to someone I can respect.

So if a little old Lady has her purse snatched, and she fights back....you have no respect for her?...same thing.

 

Really Firebird has lost NO business over this or any other post we have made.

As you can see we have inflamed some T&N followers, but they would not be our customers anyway.

 

Even when Anubis got a little off the rails months back, many more people came to us.

I am standing on principals!  I believe when I do the work to create something and it is copied, I have a right to say so.

 

Showing pics of T&N parts compaired to ours cant defame , the parts speak for themselves

Jim

[CalveryDemon 4]

Its not the same thing. If in fact you believe you had proprietary intellectual property that was wrongly copied, then you should have conducted yourself in a professional manner and sought the proper avenues to correct the situation. You have now opened up yourself to a libelous lawsuit stemming from written defamation of character.  You have now given Tooth and Nail genuine claim when you conveyed to a third party in attempt to result in harm to another person's reputation or livelihood. Let me be clear, the defamations wasn't the pictures, it was your claim (in written words) to a third party.

 

One of your statement was just plain ignorant towards me.  How WAS I not a FB customer when in fact I have purchased several parts in the past (NOTE YOUR LOWER IN MY AVATAR) and planned to do so in the future?  I don't consider myself a T&N follower sir when I own more of YOUR parts.
 

[james lambert 3,059]

If you have not seen the continious harrasment from a few posters here?

 

It is those to whom I refer

 

And I have no intention to Harm anyone

 

And I have said nothing that is untrue or that I cant prove

[steveUK 9]

It is plainly clear that all this has come about over Matt's post about having 4 out of the top 5 in an amateur championship match and was immediately attacked by JT as they took offence for some reason, what is it with people picking holes in success.

 

As for the side by side comparisons they are a joke. Having spent 25 years in sales and marketing and having produced independent reviews myself as well as read lots of so called side by side comparisons produced by manufacturers it is clear they are never unbiased.

 

By default if one of the companies writes it then it is never written in and objective way, emotions, pride and insecurities always come in to them and they end up bashing the other product, plus their own products always come out on top as they only focus on their perceived advantages and will rarely self critique their own work. The only way is to have both companies send complete guns with all their parts to an independent third party on a long term test, maybe a magazine, we could then all read the review and make our own minds up. However, the review must contain the basics of a good independent review in the real world, price, quality, fit for purpose, ease of use, ease of installation etc etc must all be covered.

 

In the end though it is us the consumers who will make up our own mind and choose a product that suits our needs and budget, some will go for their favourite brand, best customer service, best quality or others the cheapest price, but each serves a purpose and each is equally important to us.

 

Now let's stop this bashing of products, it's immature, wastes time and serves no one

[toothandnail 275]

Jim,

 

I can honestly and proudly say we had not had a single Firebird part in our shop up until September 27, 2013. On this day a customer called me and stated that he had assembled his gun with your lower and his reliability dropped from 100% to 70%. He asked if he could stop by before we left for the match this last weekend so we could help him out. We told him that would be fine. A few hours after he arrived, he left with a gun that functioned 100%. We focus on our customer service not who's parts come through the door. I wouldn't care if someone shipped us a stock gun and all Salem 6 products. If they wanted the work done and assembled, we would do that for them because that's the business we are.

 

The pictures you have posted are the most detail we have seen of any of your products. We have not copied a single item of yours. Everything has been developed here, in Missouri, with long hours and a lot of prototype parts. Our designs are just that...Ours. Every single one of our parts was done in house. From conception, to CAD drawing, to writing the code for the mills, to milling the actual part, and final finishing. EVERYTHING is done here in our shop. Anyone with mechanical knowledge and some experience with CAD can sit down and draw some parts to work with this gun. There are certain constraints and boundaries that every company must deal with which is why you will have some parts that look similar, there is no way around it. I don't see Firestone complaining because Pirelli has a round tire as well. Companies generally let their products speak for themselves and let customers decide.

 

As a business who has been in this market for just under a year, we are constantly improving our products as well as developing new ones. We have had some QC issues in the past and we may have a few in the future, its part of running a manufacturing business. We have expanded from doing this part time, to full time with 4 employees. With growth there is always problems and mistakes that must be worked out. If we have a customer that has an issue with anything at all, we get it resolved, the same day. We have always stood behind our products and always will.

 

 

ETA: My son just informed me we have installed a few firebird anti-walk FCG pins that customers have supplied.

[james lambert 3,059]

The photos and descriptions I have posted have nothing to do with who placed where in any match, its completely irrelevant

If people did well in a match, thats great! What gear they used means nothing to me, a good shooter will do well with any brand equipment.

 

This was all about showing parts side by side with an honest description of each to the best degree possible.

Who originally designed the parts is also irrevelant at this point, but it was mentioned.

The gun and parts I used are logged into my books, and would also appear in the T&N books as well, so the origin can be tracked.

 

I invite any owner of T&N parts that vary in any way from the pics I posted, to post your own pics.

Please show me any inconsistancy with what I have shown.

 

I know there is an engineering company in Colorado that has done studies on many firearms and components for many companies in the firearms industry.

They are Professonal Engineers with the ability to test and evaluate designs,stress analysis as well as metalurgy and manufacturing processes.

I would be happy to pay for one half the cost to have both guns and all the parts evaluated by that company, as their findings would be beyond Reproach.

 

I am NOT bashing anyone, nor am I attacking anyone I am only showing products side by side.

 

Any reader may simply discount any thing I have said about the parts from both companies, and just compare the pics, they are what the are, and they speak for themselves.

 

If you are a reader who is happy to see both sets of parts side by side, thats great.

If you are a reader who is upset at seeing both sets of parts side by side, thats fine as well.

 

This whole thing can be seen for what it was intended, or you may twist it or call it whatever you like, you may defame me or call me any name you like.

The representations were honest and I stand by what I have shown.

Jim

[toothandnail 275]

I see nothing wrong with a side by side comparison. That is fair. What is not fair is a competing company taking parts off a gun that has been used to what extent I do not know (abnormal wear marks on several parts). Then comparing their new or used parts to the competition. It is a completely biased comparison. I am not calling anyone a liar but anyone can see that results can easily be swayed in your favor if you are the one doing the comparison.

 

 

This is not a biased comparison. An individual on a different forum posted this up. Found it a few weeks ago. I have linked to page 4 where he does a comparison. Read the whole thread if you wish.

 

 

http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/threads/360210-MKA-1919-Shotgun/page4

[AR-12 Shotgun 16]

Just throwing this out there to end the "he stole my patented part" crap.

 

Jim, if this were true

#1. Show us the patents. They should be available on google patents.

 

#2 lawyer up and duke it out like a real business. This continuous whining on this forum is unprofessional.