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side by side comparison of T&N and Firebird handguard


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This will be a comparison of the T&N handguard and the Firebird handguard. It covers the alignment of the handguard with the upper, and the methods used, components and manufacturing techniques, assembly and disassembly, and details along with descriptions of all parts used by both companies.

 

The T&N handguard is manufactured from a length of extruded aluminum tubing in an oval configuration. They have various models of various lengths, and a variety of detachable rails that bolt directly to the extrusion.  The front face of the extrusion is capped with an aluminum plate, and I would assume it is either TIG or heli-arc welded in place. The front of the handguard has a hole for the handguard, and a hole that slips over the original guide rod. They have a variety of slot configurations and can also be obtained with a side charging system. The example we have does not have the side charging system.

 

The rear of the handguard interfaces with the upper receiver via a small, aluminum plate that is captured underneath the guide rod. In the example we have the guide rod and this plate must be removed in order to remove the bolt and carrier from the receiver. As the guide rod is now spaced forward by this indexing plate .125", in the XN versions of the gun it requires an additional .125" spacer between the spring cup and reverse-thread retention nut. In the non-XN version, this spacer is not required since the spring cup and the retention nut are on the same pitch thread.  The handguard is retained via the original MKA handguard retention nut, with a heavy-duty O-ring underneath to prevent it from loosening.

 

The finish appears to be paint, but unsure of what type of paint. T&N offers their handguard in a fairly wide variety of colors.

 

 

The Firebird handguard is available in many configurations, and in two lengths.  The shorter version is used with our High Energy Operating System and a system that retains the original operating system, excluding the high-pressure bypass.

The longer verison is designed accomodate the stock operating system.  All Firebird handguards are manufactured from 8 individual parts, all machined from billet bar stock.  In the standard configuration they all come with the non-reciprocating side charging system that Firebird developed. They can however be ordered with or without the side charging system, and with anywhere from no rails to 4 rails.  The 4 railed version cannot use the side charging system.

 

The Firebird handguard datums to the face of the MKA upper via a radius cut in the rear plate of the hand guard that fits snugly on the face of the barrel extension, as well as an indexing dowel that interfaces into the existing dowel hole in the MKA upper.  In some cases the MKA upper has incomplete holes, and require drilling with a 1/8" drill bit for proper fit. Further note, this hole in the MKA upper can vary in position slightly from the original MKA design prints. In some cases there have been .015" error in placement.

 

The front of the Firebird handguard interfaces to the firearm via the seal sleeve, which is a spacer that fights tightly on the guide rod, and mates into a recess in the rear of the front plate, it also interfaces with the gas block.  The system is retained with a machined 3/4" hex retention nut, and a 5/16" allen locking bolt.

 

All Firebird handguards are milspec hard anodize black. They can however be special ordered with various hydrographic films, and there have been a few anodized in other colors.  All Firebird handguards also come with a precision ground, stainless steel guide rod, and the machined retention nut.

 

 

This is the interface of the T&N handguard to the MKA upper, side view. In this example the barrel extension measures 1.250" and the ID of the handguard measures approximately the same, but they do not align. The extension prevents the handguard from fully seating against the receiver and thus the gap. If a relief cut were made in the handguard this surface would be flush, and would also greatly help with any side to side motion the handguard could have in relation to the barrel.

 

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This is the interface of the Firebird handguard to the MKA upper, side view. Note the slight vertical misalignment of the MKA rail and the Firebird rail. This reflects the most extreme case we could find in the variance of the dowel hole location on the uppers.

 

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Interface between T&N handguard and MKA upper, top view. Handguard has torque applied to show "play" in the first picture, and no torque in the second picture.

 

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Interface between Firebird handguard and MKA upper, top view. Same situations as the T&N pictures.

 

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T&N complete system and components.  Note the T&N gas piston comes with a gas ring. The Firebird piston uses the ring from a customer's stock piston.

 

post-18007-0-14557400-1380676257_thumb.jpg

 

T&N XN spacer

 

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Firebird complete system and components

 

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Firebird XN spacer/gas bypass cutoff

 

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T&N rear handguard interface

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Firebird rear handguard interface

 

post-18007-0-10031500-1380676877_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I assure you Katt, he didn't need any help digging this grave.

This is all getting out of hand

Jim,   We will continue to send customers your way for services we do not offer as we have been doing since we started. I hope this will be the beginning of a good business relationship from now on.

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Honestly: It looks great, but I'm having issues with both the bolt and mag release (after the conversion). I do know both can be fixed, but I haven't had the time to fiddle with it lately.  Side note: it was put together by FB.

Any problem you have...your fault, my fault, no ones fault...I will make right, and I am only a phone call away

Jim

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Honestly: It looks great, but I'm having issues with both the bolt and mag release (after the conversion). I do know both can be fixed, but I haven't had the time to fiddle with it lately.  Side note: it was put together by FB.

Any problem you have...your fault, my fault, no ones fault...I will make right, and I am only a phone call away

Jim

 

Not surprised at all...

 

RK

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It is plainly clear that all this has come about over Matt's post about having 4 out of the top 5 in an amateur championship match and was immediately attacked by JT as they took offence for some reason, what is it with people picking holes in success.

 

As for the side by side comparisons they are a joke. Having spent 25 years in sales and marketing and having produced independent reviews myself as well as read lots of so called side by side comparisons produced by manufacturers it is clear they are never unbiased.

 

By default if one of the companies writes it then it is never written in and objective way, emotions, pride and insecurities always come in to them and they end up bashing the other product, plus their own products always come out on top as they only focus on their perceived advantages and will rarely self critique their own work. The only way is to have both companies send complete guns with all their parts to an independent third party on a long term test, maybe a magazine, we could then all read the review and make our own minds up. However, the review must contain the basics of a good independent review in the real world, price, quality, fit for purpose, ease of use, ease of installation etc etc must all be covered.

 

In the end though it is us the consumers who will make up our own mind and choose a product that suits our needs and budget, some will go for their favourite brand, best customer service, best quality or others the cheapest price, but each serves a purpose and each is equally important to us.

 

Now let's stop this bashing of products, it's immature, wastes time and serves no one

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Jim,

 

I can honestly and proudly say we had not had a single Firebird part in our shop up until September 27, 2013. On this day a customer called me and stated that he had assembled his gun with your lower and his reliability dropped from 100% to 70%. He asked if he could stop by before we left for the match this last weekend so we could help him out. We told him that would be fine. A few hours after he arrived, he left with a gun that functioned 100%. We focus on our customer service not who's parts come through the door. I wouldn't care if someone shipped us a stock gun and all Salem 6 products. If they wanted the work done and assembled, we would do that for them because that's the business we are.

 

The pictures you have posted are the most detail we have seen of any of your products. We have not copied a single item of yours. Everything has been developed here, in Missouri, with long hours and a lot of prototype parts. Our designs are just that...Ours. Every single one of our parts was done in house. From conception, to CAD drawing, to writing the code for the mills, to milling the actual part, and final finishing. EVERYTHING is done here in our shop. Anyone with mechanical knowledge and some experience with CAD can sit down and draw some parts to work with this gun. There are certain constraints and boundaries that every company must deal with which is why you will have some parts that look similar, there is no way around it. I don't see Firestone complaining because Pirelli has a round tire as well. Companies generally let their products speak for themselves and let customers decide.

 

As a business who has been in this market for just under a year, we are constantly improving our products as well as developing new ones. We have had some QC issues in the past and we may have a few in the future, its part of running a manufacturing business. We have expanded from doing this part time, to full time with 4 employees. With growth there is always problems and mistakes that must be worked out. If we have a customer that has an issue with anything at all, we get it resolved, the same day. We have always stood behind our products and always will.

 

 

ETA: My son just informed me we have installed a few firebird anti-walk FCG pins that customers have supplied.

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The photos and descriptions I have posted have nothing to do with who placed where in any match, its completely irrelevant

If people did well in a match, thats great! What gear they used means nothing to me, a good shooter will do well with any brand equipment.

 

This was all about showing parts side by side with an honest description of each to the best degree possible.

Who originally designed the parts is also irrevelant at this point, but it was mentioned.

The gun and parts I used are logged into my books, and would also appear in the T&N books as well, so the origin can be tracked.

 

I invite any owner of T&N parts that vary in any way from the pics I posted, to post your own pics.

Please show me any inconsistancy with what I have shown.

 

I know there is an engineering company in Colorado that has done studies on many firearms and components for many companies in the firearms industry.

They are Professonal Engineers with the ability to test and evaluate designs,stress analysis as well as metalurgy and manufacturing processes.

I would be happy to pay for one half the cost to have both guns and all the parts evaluated by that company, as their findings would be beyond Reproach.

 

I am NOT bashing anyone, nor am I attacking anyone I am only showing products side by side.

 

Any reader may simply discount any thing I have said about the parts from both companies, and just compare the pics, they are what the are, and they speak for themselves.

 

If you are a reader who is happy to see both sets of parts side by side, thats great.

If you are a reader who is upset at seeing both sets of parts side by side, thats fine as well.

 

This whole thing can be seen for what it was intended, or you may twist it or call it whatever you like, you may defame me or call me any name you like.

The representations were honest and I stand by what I have shown.

Jim

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I see nothing wrong with a side by side comparison. That is fair. What is not fair is a competing company taking parts off a gun that has been used to what extent I do not know (abnormal wear marks on several parts). Then comparing their new or used parts to the competition. It is a completely biased comparison. I am not calling anyone a liar but anyone can see that results can easily be swayed in your favor if you are the one doing the comparison.

 

 

This is not a biased comparison. An individual on a different forum posted this up. Found it a few weeks ago. I have linked to page 4 where he does a comparison. Read the whole thread if you wish.

 

 

http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/threads/360210-MKA-1919-Shotgun/page4

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if you guys are going to do a side by side compairson why dont you guys get a new full built up gun from your competiction and shoot the same amount of rounds from each. i  have had problems with each companys product but with a drill and a file have fixed it a side by side comparson should have the exact same use just my opinion?

Edited by Goodwin
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This is another bogus comparison. My forend aligns perfectly with no "daylight" in the interface.

Hello

I knew you would chime in (he who has no name or accountability)

 

These are pictures taken directly from the T&N facebook page. I bet he takes it down

 

Note that they show EXACTLY!!  what my picture reflects. so who is fooling who??

 

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My attempt to make peace with T&N is over, he rejected my offer, I am done with it!

 

I will continue on the forum, But I wont be sharing tech info here, people can come directly to me for that.

 

Or you can go to the guy that tells you to use a hammer to dissassemble your gun with the bolt in contact with the feed lips

 

Jim

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I thought you were not going to address this anymore on the forum? At least that's what your employee said yesterday. Would have been a smart business move - continuing to handle dirty laundry in public is tactless.

     I am not impressed with this web site at all. Seems it is fine for some business members to defend themselves if they are feeling threatened with any tone they choose and that doesn't

bother you. Seems Firebird was stating side by side pics that were true (after all the pics came off his facebook page, I checked) I didn't want to just go off his word in this because of the tone in this forum. Obviously Firebird felt his designs were being copied. He chose to point that out. The tone was tense on both ends. We know this. The follow up posts tried to state Firebird took bogus pics. 

When you have supporting pics from there own web page, I would say Firebird was defending there stand. Seams there was a similar incident with Tooth and Nail with another business member this week. I was thinking of becoming a business member here and displaying some products I have developed for the MKA1919, but seems this is not the place for me.

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I thought you were not going to address this anymore on the forum? At least that's what your employee said yesterday. Would have been a smart business move - continuing to handle dirty laundry in public is tactless.

     I am not impressed with this web site at all. Seems it is fine for some business members to defend themselves if they are feeling threatened with any tone they choose and that doesn't

bother you. Seems Firebird was stating side by side pics that were true (after all the pics came off his facebook page, I checked) I didn't want to just go off his word in this because of the tone in this forum. Obviously Firebird felt his designs were being copied. He chose to point that out. The tone was tense on both ends. We know this. The follow up posts tried to state Firebird took bogus pics. 

When you have supporting pics from there own web page, I would say Firebird was defending there stand. Seams there was a similar incident with Tooth and Nail with another business member this week. I was thinking of becoming a business member here and displaying some products I have developed for the MKA1919, but seems this is not the place for me.

 

Hi GTY

 

New parts for the MKA can only make things better for all who have them, and competition can force inovation and better products.

 

But beware of this environment as a place of business as you can see.

 

Best of luck!

Jim

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My attempt to make peace with T&N is over, he rejected my offer, I am done with it!

 

I will continue on the forum, But I wont be sharing tech info here, people can come directly to me for that.

 

Or you can go to the guy that tells you to use a hammer to dissassemble your gun with the bolt in contact with the feed lips

 

Jim

 

I am just curious how I rejected your offer? I simply asked for patent numbers of your products. I do not want to infringe on something that is patented. As stated before if something is patented I will stop producing it, end of story. We have not copied any of your designs, as we have not seen nor handled any of the said parts that were "copied." We are innovative thinkers just like you and anyone else in the firearms business.

 

The dis-assembly video you speak of was how we did it a year ago, NOT how we do it now.

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When the patent office gets your info and it is filed, it becomes pat pending.

You have 1 year to go to a specifc type of patent, at that time a number is issued.

 

our parts are as told...pat pending.

 

They are protected as such!

I publicly told you this, in hopes this would be settled

I could serve you with papers, or just ignore you, as you have been asked politely to stop, and its on record

Jim

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You informed me they were patented. I asked for a patent number and you rejected my request without any other response. Anubis then said they were patent pending. Had you been honest with me from the beginning we could have ended this yesterday. Assuming you are now telling the full truth that your parts are pat. pending we will cease production of the feed ramps. Agreed?

 

Sincerely,

 

Matt

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