Muzzle device dilemma

[Terminator03 18]

OK, I currently run this muzzle device from Krebs

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/532046/krebs-custom-guns-muzzle-brake-flash-hider-saiga-12-gauge-steel-matte

 

And so far I'm happy with the looks and function, but not the length of the barrel now. Ideally I would want the overall length (with device) to be as short as possible without going NFA, which would require cutting and rethreading/pinning, or permanently welding it in place without bothering to thread. If I was going to cut the barrel and perm it, I want to be sure its something I will never want to change, which brings me to my dilemma. I've been reading a lot of good things about the Tromix Monster brake, but obviously wouldn't want all of that extra length without shortening the barrel too much to work with any other brake out there (that I know of). For those that have used this brake, is it a really dramatic difference? Is it really worth permanently cutting the barrel for? Also, I like the aggressive look, but it looks like it would add quite a bit of weight - is this the case? Obviously some of the weight will be negated by losing the length on the barrel. Has anyone on here done this? Any regrets?

[gunfun 3,931]

if you perm a brake, I'd choose one that has a big enought ID to put in a choke and get the barrel threaded internally.

[montec 164]

Take a look @ CSS, they have I think all of them on the website.  And talk about fast shipping as well.

[Terminator03 18]

if you perm a brake, I'd choose one that has a big enought ID to put in a choke and get the barrel threaded internally.

 

That's an interesting thought. I never really thought about using a choke at the end of a brake. Would something like that work with the Monster? Are you saying to thread the bore of the barrel to mount the brake as opposed to the outside like most do? If so, why would that be beneficial? I ask because I have a large lathe, Bridgeport, etc., and planned to do the work myself if possible. I actually planned to just cut and recrown the barrel, then bore the MD (whatever one I end up with) to press onto the barrel since it will need to be welded anyway. I figure why waste the time, and money buying the bore guide and die if it had to be permanent.

Take a look @ CSS, they have I think all of them on the website.  And talk about fast shipping as well.

Yeah, that site is great for options shopping, thanks.

[pedal2alloy 206]

He meant thread the barrel for normal internal chokes, but that the muzzle device needs to be big enough for the choke tube to go thru it.

[Terminator03 18]

Oh, now I get it. Thanks. Seems like it would be pretty tough to install a choke past a permed brake as long as the Monster though, no?

[gunfun 3,931]

No problem at all. Tromix actually sells or used to sell a long choke wrench just for the purpose. It would be a fairly easy tool to make too. Just split a dowel in half and put a sheet of steel in between to engage the notches in the end of the chokes.

[MLM0358 107]

Here is what Gun Fun is referring to -- the OD threads were cut off this barrel.  The barrel was then internally threaded for chokes and a comp slips on the OD of the barrel.  If you have a short barrel, you permanently attach.   In this case the barrel is still over 16" so the comp does not need to be permanently attached, hence the clamp --   You can see here a Molot GK-01 brake is attached with a custom clamp. You will see on the bench is a long choke removal tool as mentioned so the comp does not need to be removed to change chokes.   For boring comps I made a mandrel (shown below) that just lightly press fits inside the comp.   Another photo shows the comp attached to the mandrel in the lathe ready for boring.   If you perm the comp, you would bore the comp to the OD of the barrel and weld.  For the super observant, you may notice that I'm left handed since the right side lateral ports of the GK-01 brake are welded up. Also shown are two more ways I've attached comps to S12s with chokes, on the right is a compression fitting for a gun with a barrel internally threaded for chokes, on the left is a choke adapter that fits on the stock external threads and the comp was bored to slip over the adapter and attaches to that with set screws.

 

 

[gunfun 3,931]

Interresting. I don't remember if I've seen that before. Is the clamp mechanism as heavy as it looks?

The one on the left looks cleaner to me.

 

I talked a while back with someone who had chopped and permed a gk 01 with internal chokes. As I recall, it required tack welding on the steel liner, putting in a stainless blind pin between the aluminum and steel portions of the comp, and welding aluminum over the pin to ensure ATF would consider it permanent. Was that you too?

Is only the compression fit one threaded for chokes?

 

 

to the OP- Tony Rumore did at least two chopped down with the monster brake slip fitted and permed on with the pass through choke similar to the above. He used to take custom orders and build race guns, and those looked pretty B.A. Obviously the GK-01 is pretty cool looking too in a different way.

[MLM0358 107]

Clamp on is aluminum and weighs 2.8 oz.   I could maybe make it smaller and have just two cap screws on each side, or do more weight reduction, but I decided to play it extra solid-- don't want the choke blowing down range in a match. 

 

As you noted, the one on the left is a clean set up,  though it's the longest of the three.  The gun is a stock S12 barrel with stock threads.  A steel choke adapter (from Cobra on this forum)  was turned down slightly on a lathe then threaded on to the stock threads.   I bored the GK-01 to match the OD of the steel choke adapter.  There is enough steel on the insert inside the GK-01 to do this -- basically I just cut off the threads inside the GK-01.   Four set screws in the GK-01 fit into dimples machined into the steel choke adapter to keep the GK-01 from blowing off the end of the gun. 

 

Anyway, don't want to hijack this thread.  Bottom line:  there are a bunch of ways to get chokes and comps on an S12. 

[Terminator03 18]

For those suggesting threading the bore for chokes, how does that work with the chrome lining? I would think it would be very hard on the tap, as well as wrecking the chrome at the end of the barrel - no? Also, I don't know much about chokes as I have never used them, but is there a kit that comes with the correct tap, or something made for this type of retrofit?

[pedal2alloy 206]

For those suggesting threading the bore for chokes, how does that work with the chrome lining? I would think it would be very hard on the tap, as well as wrecking the chrome at the end of the barrel - no? Also, I don't know much about chokes as I have never used them, but is there a kit that comes with the correct tap, or something made for this type of retrofit?

 

The people who thread barrels say that the chrome lining is not a problem.  It does seem like it would be, but with experience and properly maintained tooling (sharp), it apparently comes out fine

[datubie 21]

This is what I use. The bit at the back is a choke adapter from Cobra Custom with a custom brake/comp welded onto the front.

 

[MLM0358 107]

You don't use a tap for internal threads, you remove the barrel and thread it on a lathe.

C & S Metal Werkes ( a vendor on this site) does a great job threading Saiga barrels for chokes.  They did one of mine.

[lx2008 4]

the originator of this post also asked if the brake he was mentioning was really worth it.

but unless i missed it in the replies, no one said. so i`m asking,.. is this brake as good as

its billed as? does it really keep the muzzle tame when in rapid firing? i`m in the market for one

to put on the end of my legion 433a.

 

thanks!

[HighPlainsDrifter 466]

is this brake as good as its billed as? does it really keep the muzzle tame when in rapid firing?

 

IMHO that is less of a brake and more of a flash hider...  Even the product description say's, "Designed to mimic the appearance of Soviet style flash suppressors."  There are plenty of options (GK-01) out there that have been reported to effectively reduce recoil and muzzle rise.  I don't think this is one of them.  I believe this model is all about looks...   

 

Edited:  I want to add that there is nothing wrong with looks.  I bought Dinzag's '74 brake for the S-12 which allows for attaching a bayonet.  I doubt it will have much use as a brake.  I also question the use of a bayonet due to the absence of a heavy walled barrel.  What I do like is the looks of a shiny blade at the end of my shotgun.  

 

This is a great thread!  What does the inside diameter of a muzzle device need to be to allow for an "internal" choke?

 

 

Pics shamelessly taken from Dinzag's website...

Edited October 14, 2013 by HighPlainsDrifter

[lx2008 4]

highplains, in your opinion what muzzle rise device would you suggest for my legion 433a?

 

gimme your 3 best options for one that screws on in place of the flash hider.

 

thanks!

[pedal2alloy 206]

To allow a "TruChoke" type and similar to go thru, it needs to be more than .795.  For other standard choke tubes, it needs to be more than .812.  There are some "thin wall" chokes that are .774

[compshootfl 40]

Who makes this brake (the front part, I got the rear is Cobra Custom) ?

This is what I use. The bit at the back is a choke adapter from Cobra Custom with a custom brake/comp welded onto the front.

 

[datubie 21]

A guy I know from a regular machine shop.

 

Who makes this brake (the front part, I got the rear is Cobra Custom) ?

This is what I use. The bit at the back is a choke adapter from Cobra Custom with a custom brake/comp welded onto the front.

 

 

[gunfun 3,931]

Clamp on is aluminum and weighs 2.8 oz.   I could maybe make it smaller and have just two cap screws on each side, or do more weight reduction, but I decided to play it extra solid-- don't want the choke blowing down range in a match. 

 

As you noted, the one on the left is a clean set up,  though it's the longest of the three.  The gun is a stock S12 barrel with stock threads.  A steel choke adapter (from Cobra on this forum)  was turned down slightly on a lathe then threaded on to the stock threads.   I bored the GK-01 to match the OD of the steel choke adapter.  There is enough steel on the insert inside the GK-01 to do this -- basically I just cut off the threads inside the GK-01.   Four set screws in the GK-01 fit into dimples machined into the steel choke adapter to keep the GK-01 from blowing off the end of the gun. 

 

Anyway, don't want to hijack this thread.  Bottom line:  there are a bunch of ways to get chokes and comps on an S12. 

 

That's pretty slick. it gives me an idea too.

[compshootfl 40]

He should make them....add a std. Saiga thread...I would be a buyer. It looks to be a very effective design with clean looks. How has it performed as far as muzzle rise for you ?

Edited October 15, 2013 by compshootfl

[Terminator03 18]

High Plains, I know the Krebs that I currently run is more of a FH, but I was asking more about the effectiveness of the Monster brake, and whether it would be noticeable enough of an improvement over what I run to be worth cutting down the barrel for, sorry for the confusion. My current Krebs one did make more difference than I thought it would.

[HighPlainsDrifter 466]

High Plains, I know the Krebs that I currently run is more of a FH, but I was asking more about the effectiveness of the Monster brake, and whether it would be noticeable enough of an improvement over what I run to be worth cutting down the barrel for, sorry for the confusion. My current Krebs one did make more difference than I thought it would.

 

My apologies, this is what happens when I hit the post button without reading the entire thread. 

 

All I can say about the Tromix monster brake is holy shit that's one huge f*ckin' piece of steel! 

Edited October 16, 2013 by HighPlainsDrifter

[gunfun 3,931]

High Plains, I know the Krebs that I currently run is more of a FH, but I was asking more about the effectiveness of the Monster brake, and whether it would be noticeable enough of an improvement over what I run to be worth cutting down the barrel for, sorry for the confusion. My current Krebs one did make more difference than I thought it would.

 

I think the most compelling review of that particular comp is to look up the trailer for Lone Star Arms's Full auto S12s. The video shows a chopped and permed Tromix monster brake in action. IMO that brake is intended for chop and/ or perm not a long barrel.

[Terminator03 18]

Bringing this back up again because I have more questions regarding chokes. What do most of you guys that do run chokes recommend for a typical range/HD type of gun? I have never used a choke before, and I'm interested in potentially adding one, but have no idea which one would be best for my intended use. Some of the examples above really have my mind wandering about fabbing up a combination choke adapter with brake setup. I have a lathe and a Bridgeport, and can weld, so custom is no problem, but I'd like to start out with an existing choke adapter if possible since I've never used them before and don't know enough about them to make one from scratch (at least initially). I'm psyched that I finally have my gun running like a swiss clock on even the cheapest bulk ammo, so now I'm ready to move on to the autoplug and other things suck as chokes, chopping the barrel, etc.

[gunfun 3,931]

Most people run open choke (no choke). I run full, or open simply because I've left the comp on there.

 

I use the Choke adapter found here with the supplied full choke. It does the job well. Many others like the polychokes, but I prefer this for the broader choice of choke style, cleaner lines, lack of need to clean, and also because anyone who has done a scientific comparison of patterns finds that polychokes help, but are not as consistent as conventional chokes with paralell/constrict/paralell design. Also I get to use a paradox choke with this adapter.

[jdtravers 637]

You don't use a tap for internal threads, you remove the barrel and thread it on a lathe.

C & S Metal Werkes ( a vendor on this site) does a great job threading Saiga barrels for chokes.  They did one of mine.

There is a reamer and tap for every choke manufactuered, I use Mansons.  You DO NOT single point cut the threads on a lathe, it is not cost effective to do so.  You could, but why would you when you can use a tap which is made for that purpose!

 

I use RemChokes for all my shotguns that get chokes and if the customer wants to add a muzzle brake with chokes, you just open up the inside of the brake with a boring bar and silver solder the brake on the barrel and use an extension to remove/install the chokes. 

 

This is the pretty much the standard that has been used for a few years now.

 

Jack

 

Below is a pic of a Reamer and the Tap set for installing Chokes, by Manson.  You set the reamer up with a floating tool holder in the tail stock of the lathe to ream the barrel and then I hand thread the barrel after I have reamed it.

 

 

 

 

[gunfun 3,931]

I'd suggest you contact Tapeworm3. He's built a few compensators.

 

If you have the tools, In my opinion. max efficiency and most compact size would probably be a molot style comp with about an inch of constriction before the gills start. A similar design which allows winchokes to screw in from the front would sacrifice a little bit of comp efficiency, and be about a half inch bigger.

 

Obviously internally reaming the barrel for chokes as Jack shows above is even better. I need to do that.

 

I recently unlocked the videos of some botched tests I was running on Tapeworm3's brakes. The flaws in the test setup render the data meaningless, but the videos still show a significant effect. I plan to redo these tests with a new  stonger more sophisticated rig, but I've been running into setbacks for about a year now on this project. Once I get going, I plan to borrow my cousin's JTE comp for comparison too. No timeline for when this will happen.

 

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSq6wScgUXRzPU1TmRs54WNHY0719c1ua

 

 

 

 

Blackhawk Vet has also done a series of subjective comparison videos, and made a few brakes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oA0z1-0r88

Edited November 16, 2013 by GunFun

[Terminator03 18]

Most people run open choke (no choke). I run full, or open simply because I've left the comp on there.

 

I use the Choke adapter found here with the supplied full choke. It does the job well. Many others like the polychokes, but I prefer this for the broader choice of choke style, cleaner lines, lack of need to clean, and also because anyone who has done a scientific comparison of patterns finds that polychokes help, but are not as consistent as conventional chokes with paralell/constrict/paralell design. Also I get to use a paradox choke with this adapter.

 

Thanks for the info, but the link wouldn't work for some reason.

 

Thanks also to everyone else who has posted so far! Great information in this thread so far!