Ammo recommendations for S-12?

[kresk 10,063]

As a newcomer, what can you knowledgable guys recommend for routine use in these categories?

 

Are there any Paradox-type (slug) chokes made in the US? If so, any chances of gettiing them with the OEM threading? Tromix?

 

Advice appreciated!

[kresk 10,063]

As a newcomer, what can you knowledgable guys recommend for routine use in these categories?

 

Are there any Paradox-type (slug) chokes made in the US? If so, any chances of gettiing them with the OEM threading? Tromix?

 

Advice appreciated!

 

Okay, I've answered some of my own questions............0 or 00 buck for self defense; rifled slug for the Saiga.

 

Any other input appreciated.

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

Lotta questions....

 

Are you asking where to get a Paradox Choke for a factory threaded S-12?

 

If so.

 

I got mine from Oleg@Rusmilitary~and it wasn't on-line when I bought it...he just said he had em.

FinnSaiga/Marko Rus. had em. No-one has kept up with him though. I think I will establish contact with him again. He sold me mags cheaper than anywhere else.

 

Marko/ FinnSaiga had Full/Modified/Paradox/Thread protectors for around 40 each.

 

Let you know.

[ironhead7544 35]

A good self defense load for 12 ga is the Federal Tactical OO Buckshot. It has a lighter recoil. Make sure it functions 100 per cent. My Saiga 12 shoots any of the standard slugs very well. The Remington Slugger seems to be a little more accurate than others. I had 10 of the Wolf slugs and they functioned ok and had lighter recoil than the others. Thats not really a good test but does give an inkling of how they will work. The open or cylinder choke will probably give the best slug accuracy but each gun is different.

Edited January 4, 2006 by ironhead7544

[AKOK 4]

Im gonna give a different answer than most for home defense. I use #4 shot to avoid sending deadly shot pellets through walls that would endanger my family like 0 and 00 can.

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

Im gonna give a different answer than most for home defense. I use #4 shot to avoid sending deadly shot pellets through walls that would endanger my family like 0 and 00 can.

 

 

I keep hearing that from Law enforcement.

 

Perfect amount of stopping power.

[kresk 10,063]

Im gonna give a different answer than most for home defense. I use #4 shot to avoid sending deadly shot pellets through walls that would endanger my family like 0 and 00 can.

 

 

I keep hearing that from Law enforcement.

 

Perfect amount of stopping power.

 

Yeah I was reading about the 000 type etc. which is fine for the close up work (20-30 ft). Makes perfect sense.

Any good sources for getting Federal Tactical (2 3/4" 00 buck)? Looked at my usual places (Sportsmans Guide, Cheaper Than Dirt, Natchez) and they don't carry it. Somewhere more concentrated on tactical and not hunting?

[Steph 5]

My choice is #4 buck. The pellets are .24 caliber, so you still get good carry downrange, good penetration, significant wound channels, and there are 3 times as many pellets than in a OO buck shell, so you get better patterns and more hits at range. Of course, I'm talking about all around defensive use. In a house, it probably doesn't matter much, you could probably shoot somebody with the wad alone at 10' and put them down.

There is still a great deal of debate as to how stopping power and killing power work. The theories I am aware of as to how projectiles cause tissue damage are: energy transfer from hydrostatic force, hemmorage via wound channel, and blood pressure overload from hydrodynamic waves. My guess is, its probably a combination of all three. Interesting stuff to know about when deciding on a defensive gun and ammo.

[DaGroaner 2]

I also have mine loaded with #4 but along with two extra 8-rounders loaded with #4 I also have another three 8-rounders filled with 00 and three 5-rounders loaded with rifled slugs. All 2-3/4" btw.

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

Sounds like #4 buck has been heard as good-to-go for HD~home defense

[yurugu 0]

I prefer the S&B 00 buck with the 12 pellets. For slugs I prefer the "Quickshock" slugs. Once they enter the body they break into three even pieces and create three seperate wound channels. From reports I have heard of animals being shot with these is that they almost instantly drop in their tracks. I also like the Remmington copper deep hollow point slugs, but at $14.00 for a box of 5 I can't afford too many. I have heard reports regarding #4 buck that havn'e been too good in regards to stopping power.

[G O B 3,516]

Overpenetration is the problem in a HD scenario.

Slugs/000 buck may cause collateral damage. (In a HD your loved ones and neighbors are the collateral that will be damaged).

Buckshot from #1 through #4 is an excellent compromise between assured lethality and limiting the penetration of interior walls and doors.

You are still going to blow right through an interior wall or door if you are pointing directly at it from close range, but at an angle the shot will be mamy times less dangerous to your "collateral".

A slug or 000 buck will easily penetrate an interior wall at a 45 degree angle, even at the stud and maintain enough energy to injure/kill. If you have a frame house, the exterior walls are probably not much more penetration resistant.

 

G O B

[kresk 10,063]

Found this posting as a separate topic, on shotgun penetration of walls by various loads. Very interesting.

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

 

Thanks expeditionx

Edited January 5, 2006 by tritium

[ironhead7544 35]

When I was a fed we were using the #4 buck for a while. It was found to be good for at most 15 yards due to low penetration. It was quickly changed back to OO. As far as home defense goes, you are probably better off not using a shotgun. A handgun with Saftey Slugs or similar ammo would be best. You cant always answer the door carrying a shotgun but you can with a concealed handgun. Also consider who has to use the gun. I use my wifes 38 because she is familiar with it.

[AKOK 4]

When I was a fed we were using the #4 buck for a while. It was found to be good for at most 15 yards due to low penetration. It was quickly changed back to OO. As far as home defense goes, you are probably better off not using a shotgun. A handgun with Saftey Slugs or similar ammo would be best. You cant always answer the door carrying a shotgun but you can with a concealed handgun. Also consider who has to use the gun. I use my wifes 38 because she is familiar with it.

 

True....I like a handguns and training too for home and personal defense. In most close range (ie in a house)senarios long guns can be more easily be taken from you by the prep also. I was just answering the shotgun ammo question.

 

Heck my dad keeps his shotgun loaded with 3 #8 bird shot and 2 00.....dont ask me why but he has his reasons.

[NoAim 0]

I believe in maximum reasonable firepower that still allows quick follow-ups. My property is measured in sqaure feet, and not acres.

 

So, I use regular power 00 buck (2 3/4"). You can get tactical/defensive, reduced power. But it's a semi-auto shotgun and the kick is mild so I don't see much purpose.

 

Slugs are fun, but I'd start worrying about blowing through my neigbors houses at that point.

 

Pistol rounds should penetrate slightly more or the same as buckshot. .30 @ 1100 fps versus .38-.45 cal at 900-1100 fps.

 

As far as a pistol for home defense...posh. A pistol is okay as a defensive weapon, but it will most likely take 2-3 shots to down an "intruder". With a shotgun you have a more controllable firearm with 5-10 times the amount of close range firepower.

 

The beauty of the shotgun is that 1 shell = 1 mag (roughly). I once calculated the theoretical rate of fire of a Semi-Auto shotgun. Assuming 1.5 shells/second of 10 pellet 00 buck, your theoretical ROF ~= 900 RPM. Or roughly that of a full auto MP5 9mm.

 

If you're worried about long guns being "taken away from you" you are WAY too close to the bad guy anyway. Distance is life (usually).

 

But, I'm not a cop, or ex-military, and have no formal training, so take these opinions as you will.

Edited January 6, 2006 by NoAim

[Steph 5]

Well, I have 20 years of formal training, but my opinions are still just that. You make some good points; but I still think a handgun is the best defensive weapon there is, because it is there when you need it. It will never match the killing power of any longarm, but if you know there is danger coming, and have time to get a longarm, you maybe should get the telephone. It is certainly easier on the psyche, the family, the pocketbook, and the attorneys if you can avoid shooting someone.

I wouldn't say a shotgun is more controllable; one can put 18 rounds of .40S&W on a human size target and reload in about 6 seconds, so the lethality is somewhat comparable, but for different applications. 1 shell may be analogous to 1 mag, but if the intruder has a partner, that doesn't equate.

If you are defending yourself, the only sure way to stop them is to take out the central nervous system. Any hit anywhere else from a shotgun, rifle, handgun, can leave them able to move their index finger, and if they can do that, they can kill you. There have been lots of folks who have taken a hit from a 12ga and gone on to kill someone. On the contrary, a well placed round in the CNS, from almost any weapon, is going to stop the confrontation on the spot. I think the deciding factors are shot placement and speed. So you need to pick the right gun for the distance, and be really good with it under extreme stress. Regardless, if you have to shoot someone, keep shooting, reload, shoot some more, until you are convinced that trigger finger is inert. I hope you never get the opportunity.

[expeditionx 1]

Some time back I remember seeing a post at shotgunworld with a link to an article of a man that tried to kill him self with birdshot. He was holding the shotgun at an angle when he fired the first shotshell into his chest.

The impact blew off alot of muscle and skin but didnt penetrate ribs/sternum. He walked 20 yards, repositioned, fired, and still alive. The third shot into his neck finally killed him.

I personally will not trust bird shot for home defense.

Buckshot for me.

Edited January 6, 2006 by expeditionx

[Bvamp 604]

after my tests on frosty the snowman this past week (see my thread in the funny section), I would never use birdshot on anything except birds. why? well, at about 8 feet distance, into a 16" snowball that sat overnight and hardened up good, I put 9 winchestor AA loads into it, and it didnt break the snowball apart until the final shot. each shot went about an inch deeper than the last. it was fun just blasting away at the thing, and even more fun with the first shot that blew frosty's head up like a balloon popping, but after seeing what it did to the middle snowball (the birdshot), I wouldnt use it on a human unless it was all I had. its about as effective as rocksalt.