Vepr -12 1st or later import?

[mikeNM 8]

Any technical improvement in the later Vepr's VS vs: the early ones??... I've posted in Vepr site here. I have a fully moded Saiga 12 I shoot in local competition... So far, the only input has been neutral.... The input I'm getting is that the Vepr is no better than a well tuned Saiga?... I had thought the Vepr gas system might be the biggest improvement.... I'll mod the Vepr if I decide to get one myself.

Edited November 11, 2013 by mikeAZ

[thebuns1 4,323]

Any technical improvement in the later Vepr's VS vs: the early ones??...I've posted in Vepr site here. I have a fully moded Saiga 12 I shoot in local competition... So far, the only input has been neutral.... The input I'm getting is that the Vepr is no better than a well tuned Saiga?... I had thought the Vepr gas system might be the biggest improvement.... I'll mod the Vepr if I decide to get one myself.

I dont think its an improvement on the weapons function as it is to having a Russian side folding rear trunnion w/ hardware and a modified safety. Otherwise its the same weapon.

 

As for it being better, its a matter of preference. I feel they are better out of the box, and have an overall better finish from the factory. Others may feel different.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Any technical improvement in the later Vepr's VS vs: the early ones??... I've posted in Vepr site here. I have a fully moded Saiga 12 I shoot in local competition... So far, the only input has been neutral.... The input I'm getting is that the Vepr is no better than a well tuned Saiga?... I had thought the Vepr gas system might be the biggest improvement.... I'll mod the Vepr if I decide to get one myself.

 

For an apples to apples comparison, the Vepr 12 and Saiga Model IZ-433 are a fair comparison. The systems are virtually identical, and the parts are to a large extent, completely interchangeable. 

 

The Vepr 12 does have a better finish out of the box , and a pistol grip, and for a $400 - $500 premium, it should. However, just like the Saiga, out of the box, neither gun is 922r compliant, and either will require compliance parts if you wish to lawfully shoot with more than a four or five round mag. The tac welded Russian folder is great if that is what you want, but if it isn't, too bad. The importers have made that decision for you.

 

We build with both Vepr 12s and Saiga Version 30s. In terms of the system, and from an operational point of view, there isn't a dimes worth of difference between a Vepr 12, and a Saiga version 30. If you are shooting competitions, and like the Vepr 12/Saiga Version 30 system, you may want to consider saving yourself $400 to $500 by purchasing a Saiga model IZ-433, and modding it to suit, rather than having to work around a factory folding stock/rear trunnion arrangement which offers little flexibility, and may or may not ultimately suit your needs.

 

Do I have a preference? Let me put it this way. If a brand new Vepr 12 with fixed folding stock showed up under my Christmas tree, I would sell it for market value, buy an IZ-433, use the extra coin for parts and mags, and build the gun I really want.

 

Mike

 

[thebuns1 4,323]

I like the Vepr better, but like already pointed out, it depends on what you want and want to do to it. Back to preference.

[mikeNM 8]

Looks like the Saiga 30 is a good choice...As I said, I thought the auto gas system was a step forward but I guess it's not that big of a deal. Just like the Russian's haven't made a lot (if any significant) changes to the AK 47.... Guess the original Saiga 12 is about the same.....

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

"Auto" gas system is not accurate in the case of the Vepr 12, and Saiga IZ-433 (Version 30). It is  a non-adjustable gas system. If you are looking for adjustability, it is hard to beat the IZ-109. The trade off is that both the Vepr 12, and Saiga IZ-433 (Version 30) offer a factory last round bolt hold open feature. The IZ-109 bolt hold open is manual.

 

Earlier this afternoon I took some shots of an LSA high performance Version 30 build, with 10 round Vepr 12 factory mags. I've posted "before" and "after" photos below.

 

Mike

 

"Before"

 

"After"

 

"Before"

 

"After"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oOghostriderOo 14]

Great looking guns Mike,  What is the price of those compared to a stock vepr 12?

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Currently, the cost difference on the upside between Legion Saiga model IZ-433 NIB (non-922r compliant for magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds) and Vepr 12 NIB (non-922r compliant for magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds) is about $400 or $500 more for the Vepr 12.  

 

Every once in a while, you'll catch an NIB Vepr 12 (non-922r compliant for magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds) on sale, even then price difference is still in the $100s.

 

Either way, if you plan to lawfully use more than a 5 round mag in your gun (free states only), what you have in hand with an NIB Russian gun is "raw material" for a  922r compliant build. How much you spend depends on just how far you want to go with performance work, parts and accessories, and whether you want to DIY (where not prohibited by law), or send your gun out to a gunsmith (FFL or FFL/SOT) for licensed professional services.

 

Our services for an "L1" complete 922r compliant high performance build for a Vepr 12 or Saiga 12 model IZ-433 currently start at $1,100 with all parts and labor included. Shipping and insurance are $45. The work is guaranteed. Discounts are available for active duty military members, and certified LEOs.

 

Please contact me directly at "lonestararms@yahoo.com" for a quote if you are interested in a high peformance custom build for your Saiga 12 or Vepr 12 shotgun.

 

You must be able to lawfully own the firearm as configured in your US state and municipality of residence. 

 

Best regards,

 

Mike

[thebuns1 4,323]

How are they not compliant with 922r out of the box with a 5rd. mag?

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

"Either way, if you plan to lawfully use more than a 5 round mag in your gun (free states only), what you have in hand with an NIB Russian gun is "raw material" for a  922r compliant build."

 

One of the most cringeworthy things I see here and on other internet venues, (almost daily) is a bone stock Russian Saiga 12, or Vepr 12 with a 12 round box mag hanging off of it.

 

You brought up a good point CH. With just a tac weld on the folding stock, and outfitted with a pistol grip, a consumer, or even a firearms dealer might mistakenly break the law by sticking a high cap mag in a gun which looks "converted", but which is not lawful to use with a magazine with a capacity of over 5 rounds.

 

An NIB factory Saiga 12 or Vepr 12  is (currently) compliant with a 5 round mag.  Stick a higher cap mag in it "as is", and it becomes 922r non-compliant.

 

Mike

[thebuns1 4,323]

That's what I thought Mike. The V12 is fairly easy to make compliant IMO.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Ultimately, I think it depends on the skill level of the person working on the firearm, and the willingness of the gun owner to learn, and do what is necessary to comply. 

 

Mike