SGL 530 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) I posted a year or so ago about some minor bolt damage at the edges of the face of the bolt. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/87364-s12-bolt-damage-pics/ The consensus was that it was probably no big deal and because the gun has run pretty good, I never worried much about it. It will actually run Winchester Universal very well from the shoulder but failed to eject from the hip. I know W/U isn't the best benchmark, but at least it points to a properly functioning gun. (I've come to wonder if the bolt face damage could have been due to putting the carrier in with the bolt face turned the wrong way when it was new and I was still figuring it out) What I never posted about was how rough the hammer face was. It was seriously chewed up, but since it ran weak shells, I figured why mess with it. Yesterday when cleaning it was inspecting the hammer and decided to pull it out and smooth it. I sanded it smooth and took the time to polish the rails as well. It definitely smoothed out the action a bit, but nothing dramatic. I took it out to test fire it and it ran about the same as before with W/U but I was able to run 00 Buck on a lower gas setting (2 instead of 3 on the MD Arms Plug). I was pleased enough but when I disassembled it at home I saw that my nice smooth hammer had brand new gouges in it. I checked out the bolt and carrier and felt around for sharp or rough edges. It is a little rough where the "foot" is on the bottom where it picks up the shells, but I don't know if this accounts for the damage to the hammer face that I'm seeing. I've included a bunch of mediocre pics if anyone would be so kind to look through them and tell me if they see something obvious. I wish I would have taken "before photos" yesterday before smoothing it out, and today before shooting it, but hopefully these will give you guys something to go on.All the hammer damage you see is from one trip with 100 rounds of Winchester Universal and 16 rounds of 00 Buck. There is one gouge more noticeable than the rest, but if you look in the orange crappy photo at the bottom right of the hammer pics you'll see more similar grooves. One other issue that I have with the gun is sometimes it can be very difficult to run the bolt back when loading a new mag. Almost as if it were having trouble getting over the first shell, or possibly hitting and gouging the hammer. I'm surprised that it runs as well as it does with this much friction but I can't help but feel like it could be a whole lot better. It's an SGL12 with the Arsenal FCG. I've thought about switching it out for Dinzag's FCG or possibly doing a Tapco myself, but I would take to have it chewed up like the arsenal hammer. Sorry for the long description and boatload of pics, but I figured the more info the better. Thanks in advance for your help. Edited January 6, 2014 by SGL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 A tapco g2 and hammer reprofiling would be a step in the right direction. Bolt profiling would be another good step. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SGL 530 Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm definitely open to swapping the hammer out, but after smoothing out this one only to find it banged up again makes me wonder what would keep this from happening to the new hammer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 It almost looks like the firing pin/striker is causing it but that would have to be one weak ass unhardened hammer for that ? Does that line up with it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lelandeod 179 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Has the hammer been reprofiled? It kind of looks like it. The downside to reprofiling the hammer is that if your not careful, the hammer will no longer be perfectly perpendicular to the bolt tail and it can cause wear similar to your photos. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SGL 530 Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Has the hammer been reprofiled? It kind of looks like it. The downside to reprofiling the hammer is that if your not careful, the hammer will no longer be perfectly perpendicular to the bolt tail and it can cause wear similar to your photos. It hasn't really been reprofiled. It was chewed up quite a bit worse than what you see just from shooting for a year or so and all I did was sand it down smooth again by hand. All the marks on the hammer that you can see are from today, but they are similar to what was there before, just not as severe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) It looks like the hammer wasn't heat-treated. I agree. It shouldn't be taking a beating like that. Do the primer strikes on the spent casings look normal? Are those primers harder than other brands? I do not own a S12. Best of luck. Edited January 6, 2014 by Sim_Player Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 My understanding is that the hammer is deliberately softer than the bolt and pin so that it takes all the wear, rather than peening up the carrier, bolt tail or pin. IMO they are softer than is necessary for this purpose. It could also be that they figure semi auto trigger groups are for toys rather than war and won't see enough round count to justify good steel and careful heat treat. Generally though, I think most of the manufacturers like tapco and arsenal know that their trigger groups can go in every podunk cheapo AK out there, so the hammer may as well be a bit softer than the worst bolt tail out there. It'll keep angry customers at bay and allow use of cheaper steel. I noticed that both my G2 hammer and my RSA show significant peening, but not near as bad as my OEM hammer did after short usage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) You should see what my factory Vepr12 hammer looks like, it's beat to shit. How does the peening on the hammer line up with the bolt tail when in the striking position? Edited January 6, 2014 by Mullet Man Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 That's what I said... Looks a lot like where the hammer strikes the striker/firing pin rear. Like it wasn't tempered or the heat treat wasn't proper but I don't often check my hammer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Sounds like an aftermarket trigger-group might be a good idea. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Billybobf 50 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I picked up g2 hammers on eBay for $7 each. Seems like a cheap consumable. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I picked up g2 hammers on eBay for $7 each. Seems like a cheap consumable. It's funny how you don't need something, until you don't have it. Spare parts always have value. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SGL 530 Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I love this forum. You guys are awesome. I figured that if something was damaging the hammer, it must be a flaw with the bolt or carrier. I never considered that it could be crappy steel or a poor heat treatment of the hammer. This theory does seem to make a lot of sense. On your suggestions, I looked at where the notches line up when the hammer is forward and the most pronounced is where the tail of the bolt carrier strikes the hammer, and the other notches below it line up pretty well with the firing pin and bolt stem. I do have a few Tapco triggers lying around, so I'm going to need to read up on modifying them to fit. If I remember correctly, the main issues are the hump in the front and taking a little off the side to accommodate the BHO. I'll do some searching on here, but if anybody has any tips, I'm all ears. I also have another new Arsenal FCG supposedly for the S12, but I'm hesitant to install that one and have it get chewed up the same way. I may contact KVAR about returning that one. Anyway, thanks again for all of the help and if you have any other advice, theories, suggestion etc... I'd love to hear them. Here's a slightly larger image with poor lighting that shows the multiple gouges better. There are actually more little nicks that don't even show up here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Very common with the lower quality steel used to make some hammers. The G-2 is the best thing to go back with, but only one that is properly re-profiled & polished. If that part isn't done right and the hammer face is over heated it will lose it's heat tempering / hardness and be susceptible to the same damage. I will prolly get dogpiled for advertising but you could do no better than to send the whole set to me to fix it up right with our Lightning Bolt service. It's a re-profile and polish treatment on all the important surfaces requiring it, done correctly and with the best tooling / techniques, and is flat out guaranteed to make a night and day difference in cycling and performance. Two week turn around and no one has ever lost parts sent to us for service. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Cobra does good things to bolt carriers and hammers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SGL 530 Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Cobra does good things to bolt carriers and hammers. Great to hear. He and I are discussing getting that done and replacing the FCG, and I must say he's winning me over through patience with my incessant questions via PM. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brickfield mfg 86 Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Cobra does good things to bolt carriers and hammers. Great to hear. He and I are discussing getting that done and replacing the FCG, and I must say he's winning me over through patience with my incessant questions via PM. +1 Cobra not only does good work, but is one hell of a nice guy to deal with and is happy to share his knowledge with people! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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