Goose 95 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I love my 109, I've spent a lot of time and money over the past few years tinkering until I've just about got it the way I want it. But then a while back I start seeing all these new models as they're coming out that I like even more. So I'm going to sell what I've got and start all over, kinda excited actually. I do have a problem though, basically I want a 443 without a mag well. Which is kinda like the 412, but with an adjustable gas block and the fsb all the way out front. The gas system is more important to me, but I really really don't want a mag well either. I have a ton of mags and I like rock and lock. Plus the mag well is just more material and the lrhbo is just another moving part to me. I'm wondering how hard it would be to get a 443 and convert it back to taking standard S12 mags? Is it just just pull the well off? If not could some sort of adapter plate be made to replace it? Or is it simply a matter of slicing the mag well off close to the receiver? I haven't seen many pictures of those areas close up other than people just taking pictures of the side of their gun or images on dealer sites. Thanks for taking time to read Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HighPlainsDrifter 466 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I do have a problem though, basically I want a 443 without a mag well. Which is kinda like the 412, but with an adjustable gas block and the fsb all the way out front. The gas system is more important to me, but I really really don't want a mag well either. I have a ton of mags and I like rock and lock. Plus the mag well is just more material and the lrhbo is just another moving part to me. I'm wondering how hard it would be to get a 443 and convert it back to taking standard S12 mags? Is it just just pull the well off? If not could some sort of adapter plate be made to replace it? Or is it simply a matter of slicing the mag well off close to the receiver? I haven't seen many pictures of those areas close up other than people just taking pictures of the side of their gun or images on dealer sites. Thanks for taking time to read First off I'm confused, I can't find a Iz-443. You also speak of the 412 not having an adjustable plug which is incorrect. I think you mean the other way around. Just want to make sure so that you get the correct information. Anyways, to answer the question of reconfiguring the receiver to accept rock-n-lock mags. Yes, it can be done. One member in particular has done it. No it's not as simple as just pulling the magwell off. The receiver has been cut larger to accept magwell magazines. Pauly made a adapter plate that worked for his vepr-12. Essentially it would be the same process. BTW, don't slice the magwell off. It unbolts on one end and is pinned at the other near the release lever. I'm not certain but you may also have to take out the LRBHO since there's a good chance it'll get caught up with the rock-n-lock mags. Not a big deal, I just don't want you thinking you are issue free by simply removing the magwell. My advice, be patient and buy the correct configuration. Legion USA has mentioned they'll be receiving more stock after the holidays. Not sure what that means but you've waited this long, just wait a little longer until the right model comes out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brickfield mfg 86 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 First off I'm confused, I can't find a Iz-443. You also speak of the 412 not having an adjustable plug which is incorrect. I think you mean the other way around. Just want to make sure so that you get the correct information. Anyways, to answer the question of reconfiguring the receiver to accept rock-n-lock mags. Yes, it can be done. One member in particular has done it. No it's not as simple as just pulling the magwell off. The receiver has been cut larger to accept magwell magazines. Pauly made a adapter plate that worked for his vepr-12. Essentially it would be the same process. BTW, don't slice the magwell off. It unbolts on one end and is pinned at the other near the release lever. I'm not certain but you may also have to take out the LRBHO since there's a good chance it'll get caught up with the rock-n-lock mags. Not a big deal, I just don't want you thinking you are issue free by simply removing the magwell. My advice, be patient and buy the correct configuration. Legion USA has mentioned they'll be receiving more stock after the holidays. Not sure what that means but you've waited this long, just wait a little longer until the right model comes out. Have you used a magwell gun? I put a lot of money in my IZ 109 and have a fair number of magazines, but besides not accepting a drum (which is being addressed, and will just be a matter of time before that is not an issue), IMO the magwell is faster to use. I switched to the VEPR 12, and never looked back! But if you HAVE to get a Saiga - I agree with HPD, and would wait for one with the features you want to become available. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Goose 95 Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Drifter, I'm sorry, I'm a lil lysdexic, I meant 433, not 443. http://legionusainc.com/iz-433-saiga-12-030-type.html 7.62, if you're speaking generally, than yes I have. I have an AR. It's cool and all, but really the only reason I have it is cause it's fun to tinker with. I'm not the super tactical carbine kinda shooter with tons of practice on reloading drills. I'm mostly looking to have simple, no nonsense kind of build, and for me the well just adds bulk and the bho makes it seem less like an AK to me. Both of you, in regards to waiting for the right one to come along: Is there a model like I'm imaging and it's just out of stock? Or is it more like there's buzz of new configurations coming out and we're waiting to see? I've been out of touch with new stuff for a bit, I just got engaged and haven't been home much to browse. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Goose 95 Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Maybe a merciful moderator can correct that for me so I don't seem so foolish... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brickfield mfg 86 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Drifter, I'm sorry, I'm a lil lysdexic, I meant 433, not 443. http://legionusainc.com/iz-433-saiga-12-030-type.html 7.62, if you're speaking generally, than yes I have. I have an AR. It's cool and all, but really the only reason I have it is cause it's fun to tinker with. I'm not the super tactical carbine kinda shooter with tons of practice on reloading drills. I'm mostly looking to have simple, no nonsense kind of build, and for me the well just adds bulk and the bho makes it seem less like an AK to me. Both of you, in regards to waiting for the right one to come along: Is there a model like I'm imaging and it's just out of stock? Or is it more like there's buzz of new configurations coming out and we're waiting to see? I've been out of touch with new stuff for a bit, I just got engaged and haven't been home much to browse. No, I was speaking of a Saiga 030 type or a VEPR12 when I said a magwell gun. While not "traditional", they are better IMO because of the magwell. The BHO allows you to insert a mag without having to compress the rounds in the mag, and the same button that manualy holds the bolt open on other models is there, but closes the bolt when it is pushed up with the trigger finger - so you do not have to pull the charging handle to close the bolt. I am not into speed loading, and don't practice loading drills either, but the magwell is just plain easy to use and is faster - there is a reason most if not all 3 gun competitors use a magwell gun. I am not sure there is a model out there in the configuration you are looking for - with a conventional AK rear sight block, and the front sight mounted on the gas block that is rock and lock. Dinzag can modify your gun to have the rear sight, and you can replace the gas block for the type you want, but to do those mods would be very expensive. The other option would be to get a Saiga 412 with the post sight near the muzzle, and pull it off and use the gas block type sight. You can cut the barrel back the eliminate the grooves where the pins holding the old sight on were, and silver solder a flash hider on the barrel to get it back to 18". Giving you the SBS look without the paperwork... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HighPlainsDrifter 466 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) The other option would be to get a Saiga 412 with the post sight near the muzzle, and pull it off and use the gas block type sight. You can cut the barrel back the eliminate the grooves where the pins holding the old sight on were, and silver solder a flash hider on the barrel to get it back to 18". Giving you the SBS look without the paperwork... Good advice in getting a Iz-412nm. Not so good in having him swap the front sight post for the gas block similar to the 030's as they are not interchangeable. You'll find both models have very different bolt carriers. The 412nm is a great model. One thing you may consider is getting Legions last in stock Iz-407. You can take off that dragunov hand guard and purchase Dinzag's lower retainer and both upper hand guard retainers. This would allow you to use traditional ak hand guards with slight modification. I've already discussed this w/ Brian and it can be done. This would leave you with the remaining barrel sleeve. I suppose it could be removed but that means more work. Again, wait for the model that suits you. If that means contacting legion and asking them if they have something sailing over on the boat soon then do so. Edited: 7.62m43 is trying to get you into a magwell fed machine. Listen too him! The LRBHO is fucking fantastic! Try it once and you'll be selling all your rock-n-locks... Edited January 8, 2014 by HighPlainsDrifter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Goose 95 Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 All very good info guys, thanks. If the one I want isn't going to exist for the foreseeable future I'll just buy the mag well gun for now. Try it out for a bit and who knows, maybe I'll end up liking it. If not I'll proceed as needed. If anyone hears anything about someone willing to make those adapter plates, or the configuration I'm looking for becoming available, I'll be here! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Goose 95 Posted July 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2014 Super old thread now, but just in case any of you guys check: I ended up going ahead any buying a 433 from Legion. I decided that the gas system was the most important thing to me, and God knows how much they're about to cost. It arrived today, and things were slow at work, so I clocked out and scooted over to the police range and put 25 rounds of WalMart through her. I'm willing to chalk it up to me not being used to the magwell + the gun being new, but I just couldn't get the hang of the angle of insertion (that's what she said). I however don't hate it as much as I used to, so I'm willing to keep at it...besides, it would most likely have been the last thing I that I changed on the gun anyway. I still have to convert it and what not. Very happy, it was awesome to take her out of the box and pump bird shot through her, thanks for the input guys. P.S.- Oh and Drifter, when I dug up this thread, I reread it as I scrolled down and realized what you were saying in your first post. Yes, I misspoke, in a grammatical sense when I said, "...like the 412, but with...", but I was actually talking about the 412 having the manually adjustable gas block and separate FSB, as opposed the self regulating gas block of the 433, which I mistakenly called a 443. Forgive, I was probably drinking/drunk. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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