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Any riders out there? Need opinions and help


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Well here's where I am at today. Bought my bike in 2010 and within a year this problem stopped my riding in its tracks.

My r6 has less than 5000 miles on it. Stock everything except for K&N air filter and Full yoshimura exhaust.
Only used amsoil for changes every 3000.

The problem was I stopped at a gas station on my way home I normally would never go to (Very bad area) but, had no choice. Filled up and drove home. Next morning. My bike when I started it had a low growl and chug like a cruiser if you will.

I opened the throttle then it died. tried to start it again no luck. checked the battery. charged it. then replaced it. emptied the gas tank and to my disgust, nasty varnishy gas. slight rust in areas. fuel pump and filter clogged with debris (replaced). starter system codes popped up when i checked it. So I replaced, everything that had to do with the starting system. That still didn't work so I began to take apart what I could. everything has tarnish or oxidation. replaced the throttle body and fuel rails and injectors. changed out the spark plugs. I am getting gas. and I am getting spark. Just have very very little compression. Doing engine work is beyond me so I have had it at several mechanics who have given up. Last mechanic says he thinks its camshaft position sensor or a timing issue saying its not firing at the right times. but a different mechanic said it had little to no compression.. I haven't been riding for about 3 1/2 years now so my bike tech knowledge is lacking these days.

The bike never gave me problems before hand and all of the work that was done was completed by a yamaha dealership.

If anyone thinks they might know whats wrong or can help me out Id love to get back on the road this spring.

Happy New Year everyone.

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As a fellow rider I offer my sympathies because I know how frustrating that can be.  Unfortunately at this point the original issue may have been addressed and now there is something else screwing things up or you have multiple compounding issues.  I will try to ask around but in my experience a good factory certified service tech is usually the best resource. 

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My experience is with HD only. I would be guessing in the dark. However, the low compression issue does make me wonder. How did you arrive at this conclusion? Did you inadverdently loosen any head bolts when taking everything else apart?

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That was two mechanics who had that conclusion after checking it for compression. I only do bolt on stuff. Im no mechanic by any means.

 

There was a lot of water in that gas as well.

 

However I forgot to mention that in 2012 after I replaced the throttle bodies and fuel rails and injectors. We made progress. It wants to turn over. Its so close you can hear it. Just won't fire up

We sprayed a ton of starter fluid in one night and about after about 15 times running up and down a hill road trying to get a running start. We got it to start and fire up. However it shut off after about 5 seconds

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something sounds strange. the injector pressure is high enough that after supplying fresh clean fuel to the system it should have no problem purging the bad gas out. and the fuel filter built into the fuel pump and the inline fuel filter should have kept debris out of the rail and injectors. have you had the fuel pressure tested? maybe new fuel pump bad? how about pressure and return lines mixed? also do you have any throttle cable free-play? no free-play can cause the ecm to kill the spark (safety feature, it actually allows you to check compression with out causing a fire) you should be able to rotate the throttle back and forth a little without any tension from the throttle return spring. check this first.

 

what is the actual compression in psi for each cylinder?

after finding low compression the next step should be a leak-down test for the cylinder(s) with low compression to determine what component(s) are not sealing. ex: rings, exhaust valves, intake valves. head gasket, cracked piston/cylinder. bump starting is not good. it can cause the flywheel key to shear throwing the flywheel timing off and ignition timing off. i would also check valve timing.  

 

when you say you replaced everything that had to do with the starting system.  is that the starter motor and the relay?  i don't know any codes that would indicate that.

 

multiple problems are tough especially when it could be ecm and there is no test for that except testing all components connected including the wires to rule them out leaving the ecm to be at fault. or plugging a known good one.

this probably doesn't help much. but you have to start with the basics: compression, spark, flywheel timing, valve timing, ignition timing. if it won't start or run on starting fluid its probably more than a fuel system problem. 

 

​eta: forgot to mention i have the factory service manual in pdf i can give you. if you want it let me know. i will upload it to skydrive and send you a link 

Edited by fan
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...

 

​eta: forgot to mention i have the factory service manual in pdf i can give you. if you want it let me know. i will upload it to skydrive and send you a link 

 

09 R6 here. Would like to get my hands on that if you are sharing :)

 

 

 

That sucks and I hope you get it figured out Megaman.

 

Did you report the problem to the Gas Station where you purchased the fuel? I know it is a long shot but may be worth a try reporting it and seeing if they will pay for repairs. I would be so pissed I probably would stand outside the station with a sign that says "Bad Gas Sold Here!" until they complied. 

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98 FLHTI, so I have no real answer for you MegamanX. But as Some Idiot said, the fact that you through a bunch of parts at it, it is hard to say.

I am and automotive technician by trade, and after several folks have their hand in a problem it is hard to say what may have "fixed" or "caused" more problems. The fact that you have "low compression" is an entirely different animal(and nobodys crap gas is going to cause low compression).

 

Wish you the best of luck and get back on two wheels!

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You really need to get an accurate compression check first.  Spent a few years rebuilding motors both in the marine industry and I still race motorcycles.

 

That is the FIRST thing  you want to do when there are any engine problems.  Buy you a cheap compression gauge/adapter and find out where you are before any more testing and/or changes, then look at cam timing, then look at ignition timing, then look at fuel delivery.  These are very basic checks that you can do and learn in the process.  Buy a shop manual and go for it!!!!!

 

Finally, find a gas station that sells non ethanol gas and stick with it!!!  You will see a big difference in performance!!!

 

Funny, I was just looking through the catalogs thinking about rebuilding my 97FXSTC into a rigid:)

 

Jack

post-11998-0-94004900-1389408799_thumb.jpg

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...

 

​eta: forgot to mention i have the factory service manual in pdf i can give you. if you want it let me know. i will upload it to skydrive and send you a link 

 

09 R6 here. Would like to get my hands on that if you are sharing smile.png

 

 

 

i have 08. it's yours if you want it. i thought i had up to 2010 but not seeing it. it's probably 99% the same as 09 

 

let me know if you want it 

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gallery_46845_1276_815133.jpg

 

Here is my baby. Sorry to hijack your thread and toss my pron in the mix while your hurting Megaman :)

 

Absolutely would love a copy fan, I found the user manual online but couldn't track down the service manual. Would like to start doing more of my own maint. so I don't have to pay or ask friends for help all the time. 

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I had an R6 before I upgraded to an R1. I assume it's an EFI unless you bought a mildly used '99 or something. Do you have a way to flash the ECM? I'm not a bike mechanic but sometimes the ECM will try to compensate for problems and stay shit-ily programmed thereafter, often a flash to stock will fix this. 2nd guess as mentioned above is rings. 3rd guess valves.

 

I wouldn't try to continually spray starter fluid into it, that's not good. A compression kit will only tell you if you HAVE a problem, which you already know you do, but may be handy if you feel you've resolved it and want to verify. The next logical step for me after checking the ECM and knowing bad compression would be a leak-down test to see if it really is the rings/valves.

 

(an afterthought) Could the head/block jacket be leaking coolant into motor hence the water or are you sure it was bad gas?

Edited by Conscript
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It is funny, people say, I am not a motorcycle mechanic but here is what you need to do:)

 

Again, ANYONE who is a professional mechanic will do a compression check FIRST. 

 

I am a factory trained Mercury Outboard mechanic/Tech and Harley Davidson Mechanic/Tech.

 

You DO NOT need to do a leak down test, since a compression test will give you all the info you need to know at the initial trouble shooting sequence and anyone who recommends it has definitely not done one them self or they would know it is much more involved!!.  We do leak down tests after every run on the drag bikes, but again, you do not need to do one if the compression is in range. 

 

If it is not, then check to make sure the cam timing has not jumped.  This is very easy to do with a degree indicator wheel on the crank and bring the #1 Cylinder to TDC on the compression stroke, then check the position of the valves are completely closed, which is the easy way if you don't know about cam timing.  If they are not, then the cam has jumped timing.  Easy fix.

 

Then go to the next trouble shooting sequence.

 

Jack

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This reminds me of when my lawn tractor crapped out on me.  Couldn't get the darn thing to start.  Turned out the cam was worn round!!!  Cracked the case open, replaced it, adjusted valves and bingo, has run like a champ since then.  

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I’m assuming you are directing this rant at me. Lets break it down.

 

It is funny, people say, I am not a motorcycle mechanic but here is what you need to do:)

 

Yea its funny, I never said I wasn’t a motorcycle tech. lol

 

Again, ANYONE who is a professional mechanic will do a compression check FIRST. 

 

It’s the first real test I suggested to do "first".

 

I am a factory trained Mercury Outboard mechanic/Tech and Harley Davidson Mechanic/Tech.

 

I’m a factory trained Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Bombardier motorcycle, atv,  pwc tech

 

You DO NOT need to do a leak down test,

 

You DO NOT need to do anything if you don’t want to.

 

since a compression test will give you all the info you need to know

 

I disagree. Compression test will only let you know that something is generally wrong if compression is low. A leak down test(I have done many) when used on a cylinder with low compression is going to have a high percentage of leakage. You can hear the air escaping:

If it’s the rings/piston/cylinder you will be able to hear it through the removed oil cap(crankcase). Exhaust valves - through the exhaust pipe, intake valves – through the throttle body, head gasket/cracked cylinder – coolant coming out from radiator with cap removed. You don’t have to use this tool just to check if your cylinders are at 8 or 10% leak down on a race bike. It can be a quick way to get an idea what the problem may be before tearing it down.or if you even have to do a tear down. Everything you recommend I recommended also. And in the same order. So many times I have worked on bikes brought in to the shop "to get running" find  low compression. then, I found high leakage through the intake valves (using my leak down tester) and then turning out to be build up on the valve face/seats. Easy fix all you have to remove is the valve cover ant tap on the valves and you can actually watch the percentage of leakage decrease on the leak down tester gauge. Just a compression test wouldn't tell you that.

 

 at the initial trouble shooting sequence and anyone who recommends it has definitely not done one them self or they would know it is much more involved!!.  We do leak down tests after every run on the drag bikes, but again, you do not need to do one if the compression is in range.

 

Uhm.really.ok. I’m using it as a tool to quickly diagnose the problem of a cylinder that has already been determined to have low compression. i'm not really paying attention to the actual percentage number except that its a lot. I'm listening to where the air is escaping.

You're using it to determine if your cylinder(s) are sealing optimally to determine when to freshen up yhe top end. If in fact you are actually racing competitively. 

Anyway, you have your way, I have mine. i just don’t think you should talk down to me. because, I use my tools a little differently than you. or don't understand that there is more than one way to use a leak down tester.

 

If it is not, then check to make sure the cam timing has not jumped.  This is very easy to do with a degree indicator wheel on the crank and bring the #1 Cylinder to TDC on the compression stroke, then check the position of the valves are completely closed, which is the easy way if you don't know about cam timing.  If they are not, then the cam has jumped timing.  Easy fix.

 

Its actually easier than that. There are marks on the ignition rotor and the cam sprockets. all you have to do is line them up. the top of the piston is about 4 inches down a spark plug tunnel (hemi) with the frame and airbox an inch above the top of the valve cover. you can barely get your hand in there. you have to drop your spark plug socket down the tunnel add 2 short extensions one at a time just to remove the spark plugs. so id like to see you get a dial indicator in there with a 4+ inch extension on it. smile.png

sorry, couldn't let this go unchallenged.  

John

 

Then go to the next trouble shooting sequence.

 

Jack

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Ton of information to look over. Thanks guys. I'll do a compression test and come back with the results.

 

Nice looking bikes. I miss riding so much. This sucks.

 

No comments on being able to get it to fire up and run for 5 seconds? Lol. After that Randon fluke, we couldn't get it fire up again.

Edited by MegamanX
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Ton of information to look over. Thanks guys. I'll do a compression test and come back with the results.

 

No comments on being able to get it to fire up and run for 5 seconds? Lol. After that Randon fluke, we couldn't get it fire up again.

that's why i suggest checking if you have free play in your throttle cable. none can cause no or intermittent spark and its easy to check and adjust. look it up in that manual i sent you.

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Yes you can hear the fuel pump and everything work perfectly before trying to start. The old fuel pump you could tell was about dead. The throttle cable is to spec. Last time I checked. Because I had gone over that.

 

The bike is currently garaged up in storage so I'll have to make it out that way this next week to do the compression test.

Edited by MegamanX
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When I took out the old spark plugs they were pretty filthy. When I looked into the valves you could see some crusty light colored gunk in two of them. Same stuff I found throughout the fuel system. When I was replacing everything.

 

And about standing outside of their gas station with a sign that said bad gas sold here? About a month later a big storm passed through our town and completely collapsed their gas station. Karma

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I’m assuming you are directing this rant at me. Lets break it down.ack

No you are just insecure.  I was directing my comments at the guy named conscript who said, I am not a mechanic, but here is what you need to do.  smile.png

This is why you guys are just so freaking funny!!!!!

 

Jack

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I’m assuming you are directing this rant at me. Lets break it down.ack

No you are just insecure.  I was directing my comments at the guy named conscript who said, I am not a mechanic, but here is what you need to do.  smile.png

This is why you guys are just so freaking funny!!!!!

 

Jack

 

apparently, and not a very good reader.

my apologies Jack I thought I was the only one suggesting a leak down test.

 

John

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I dont recall telling anyone "this is what you need to do". The title of the thread was *Any riders out there? Need OPINIONS and HELP".

 

Rider? Check.

Worked on my own R6 motor(Help)? Check.

Opinion? Check.

 

Everyone STFU, the HARLEY guy might make fun of you if you give your opinion. That's it, we can all go home. Closed forum.

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To answer your previous post. When I took off the tank and empties it out. We tested it and there was a lot of water in the gas. On top of a ton of debris. Clogged my fuel filter and pump. and pitted the inside of my tank. When I changed the oil last just to change it there wasnt anything out of the ordinary that I could see. I gotta get ahold of my mechanic who has it garaged up at his place because I live in a apartment. Lotta snow here in Indiana.

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You can't get varnish from one tank of gas at a station. You probably stored you bike with cheap ethanol gas and it worked up over time. Then, you put in more cheap ethanol gas and the ethanol worked as a solvent to remove the varnish from the tank and lines.

 

The varnish is most likely in your carb. It's easy to clean up and rebuild. If you can tear apart an AK fully and clean it, you can do your R6.

 

My brother did this to my r6 about 13 years ago. All it took was one winter of storage out at the farm and then he put more crap gas in it. New fuel lines, seafoam, and carb cleaning did the trick.

 

The dealer will rape you on this job. You can do it yourself.

 

Good luck and stay away from the cheap shit gas! Go to the airport if you have no traditional premiums in your area.

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Exactly what gas company isnt putting alcohol in gas any longer?

 

I ask because I tend to run older  engines and this crap is just junk.

It has been suggested that I run a stablizer in the tanks to help with some of the problems this stuff causes but cannot confirm it.

 

Storage is another problem, I tend to keep at least one tank full, 30-50 gal, stored with stabilizer and have doubts. 

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You gotta check around.  Do a Google search for your area.  I am in Louisiana and we have 4 stations that have non ethanol gas here in this small town.  I have 4 race bikes to feed and won't run anything else, even in the lawn equipment!!

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