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Hello all, I am looking to get a mka 1919 xn or br 99 for home defense purposes. I have some ideas as to how I would like to modify/customize it, but would love some ideas and feedback from you guys. Feel free to critique the following and/or offer up the best HD builds you can think of (on or off a budget).

 

My current thinking is as follows: to not go sbs at the moment due to cost and time.

Weight isn't a huge factor as I won't be lugging it around all that much outside of the range (hopefully), however it should still be light enough to manipulate and aquire targets quickly.

Ability to cycle low power and low brass is no biggy as it will be used with high velocity 00 and #1 buck and perhaps slugs (no kids in the house yet).

Reliability and accuracy (within reason this wont be a completion gun) are huge factors, if you don't hit, they don't go down.

Will need 922r compliance as reliable high capacity (I'm thinking 8+?) are a must.

Mount red dot, mount flashlight/for grip, ???, profit. (And probably a new stock and sling)

 

On a side note I have a decent amount of xp with both ar and ak systems, but this will be my 1st semi-auto shotgun.

 

Thanks for the feedback and opinions!

Edited by Potss
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I dont mean to come off like a dick and I am a BIG fan of the MKA.......but if I was going to keep a shotgun for home defense it would be a good old pump gun, with a mounted light and no red dot.

 

 

You could add a tube extension if you're worried about only having 5 rounds.

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It's fine I expected at least one reply like that, your not a dick at all just sharing an honest opinion! I don't want this thread to turn into semi vs pump, I was looking for the info the original post is asking for. There are many reasons I settled on a semi-auto (not the least of which being familiarity) and for the time being I'm sticking to it. Its not the only HD gun I own just the 1st shotgun.

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If you're going to be looking at HD, I would put some focus on the magazines.  HD to me means reliability first and foremost and mags are a key to reliability if you're using mostly factory MKA components.  There are some threads here about fitting and tuning magazines.  Here is a recent one:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/91755-feed-lip-adjustment-on-mags/

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Yes I definitely plan to pattern a few different loads.

 

OK well I said I didn't want to change the thread but since there appears to be little interest in my initial post perhaps I'll just open it up a bit (although I still prefer responded to my 1st post). Why is a pump better for HD? For very slightly more reliability we lose ammo capacity, erganomics, ROF, maneuverability, familiarity, and ease of use/reloading. I am aware that with large amounts of practice (time+money I personally do not have ATM and most of what I do have is used on other semi-auto systems) a few of these issues are addressed. I do not see how the trade is worth it, especially for myself, but feel free to explain why may be wrong here.

 

As far as stacking up against an AR or other semi auto rifle, I believe the penetration and wound channel data point to shotguns being far more capable out to 40-50 yards with #1 or 00 buckshot. That is why I'm looking at a shotgun instead of another AK for HD, and for the reasons stated in the last paragraph I was attract end to semi-auto shotguns specifically. And as I do not want to drop $$$$+ converting a saiga, the mka or be seemed ideal. Again if I am missing something or my assertions seem incorrect explain it to me :).

 

Thanks!

Edited by Potss
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My thoughts are as follows. Feel free to think otherwise.

 

Pick a good load of full velocity #4 or #1 Buck and find out how well your MKA runs it. You will know whether you are going to have problems or not within the first 50 or so rounds, more is a good idea. I think a full or modified choke tube is a good idea too. It gives you a bigger window where your gun can do it's job. i.e. zero feet to about 150 feet, vs roughly zero to 90'.

 

Of your two choices, the BR 99 appeals more to me. An S12-030 or V12 has several choices of magazines I would trust more, but probably all of the above are HD worthy once tested.

 

Write numbers on your magazines  and track which (if any) have problems. 

 

Keep it loaded and ready. The most frequent failure on any mag fed firearm is chambering the first round. This is true for pumps and tube guns too.

 

As for pumps... Part of any system is you. You are the most likely part to fail under stress. A pump gun requires you to do a lot more of the work, so that's a lot more chances to fail.  A spring never gets nervous and pushes 80% of the stroke, or works faster or slower when times are scary. Gas pressure is the same no matter whether you are at the range or being attacked by your daughter's drunken ex boyfriend. Can you say the same for your left arm? 

 

Watch this expert show you the "only way" to load a shotgun.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg1ANowlCIg

How many times does he fumble? I counted at least 3 that he dropped, but he was having to feel around for the rest. Are you better? I'm not, but I can shove a huge mag into a huge hole without ever dropping it. Ever. Gross motor skills, less steps, and whatnot. You don't have to hit a little lever to open the pump on an Adkal, because it doesn't have that little lever.

 

Even with a Semi auto tube gun reloading has way more operations and chances to make mistakes. their weight is further forward and therefore more leverage fighting you holding it up as you reload. 

 

Lets look at the chances to make mistakes in a simple tube gun reload of 7 rounds:

.5: if pump. pull the pump all the way back. Most of the way is a problem. On some guns you may have to hit a release. If you don't do this smartly, the shell may not eject, and clearing it is a hassle.

1: Take hand off of forend. Hold gun in the general direction of attacker.

2: reach for more ammo (And you won't be wearing a race rig if someone wakes you up at 3:47 am)

3: grab ammo and orient it in your hand the correct direction.

4: feel for your tube or side port. 

5: shove that shell in.

6: if pump.  Move your hand back to the pump

7:push the pump all the way forward. Most of the way is a problem. on tube semis, either grab the bolt or hit the release. Also if you get nervous and your hand shifts rearward, you've pulled the shell partly out of battery.

8: if not pump- move your hand back to the forend.

 

=7  chances to make a mistake, All other than the pump stroke repeated for each shell x 7= 35 operations to get wrong for a full reload. Plus every time you fire you have to do two extra actions correctly on a pump gun. While holding the gun upright, and in a smooth steady way. We'v e all had a shell not jack in right if our pump stroke is screwy. 

 

You can get it wrong on each of those. 

 

Box Mag fed gun:

 

1: Take hand off of forend. Hold gun in the general direction of attacker. box fed guns have less leverage against you.

2: Grab mag from pocket (a whole lot easier to grab a mag from the night stand with the gun than a bunch of loose shells or a bandoleer.)

3: Make sure mag is facing the right way.

4: shove that big mag upward toward the big hole until you feel a click. (on a rock and lock gun, this becomes roughly 3 discreet steps)

5: grab the bolt handle under the action or hit the bolt release .

6: Move hand back to forend.

 

=  chances to make a mistake, repeated only after 11 rounds, and every 10 thereafter

 

You can get it wrong on each of those steps. They occur far less often, and they tend to be bigger simpler movements.

 
I'm not saying that a pump gun is hard to use or that they constantly fail, but I am saying there are more real chances for problems. People tend to discount the problems when they happen, because they don't fit the conventional story that pump guns are 100% reliable. Well, if your shell doesn't go into chamber because it's your fault, it still didn't go into chamber. There's a reason why the various miltaries aren't using single feed bolt action rifles, and it isn't mostly just about volume of fire. It's about operator error.
Edited by GunFun
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I say look at the weapon your going to use. If a non gun person would be a little freaked out by it its not a good idea. If you shoot someone you will be in court, if it goes to trial whats a jury going to think of your bang wizz weapon of mass destruction with lights and lasers and rails vs an old fudd 870 or 1187?

 

And the reason to choose a pump for me are many. And a pump is much more reliable than any auto that's a fact just search around and see home many threads are dedicated just to getting these auto mag feed guns to work on a range, must less in real action. Look for threads asking for help making an 870 run, there arent any since they just work. I've had my 870 in the trunk of my car loaded with 7 in the tube. About a week ago we had temps in the single digits for days I pulled the shotgun out in freezing temps it hurt to hold it was so cold and it fired all rounds not missing a beat. And you can shoot hundreds without cleaning or having problems try that with your saiga. Have you seen how big an 8+ round mag is? With a tube fed gun you can carry loose roubds or a side saddle and top the gun off on the go, cant do that with a box mag. Imagine you are defending your self youve fired a few rounds and are carrying one extra mag since thay are fucking huge and fit absolutely nowhere now you want to top off, your only choice change mags, with a tube gun just top it off and keep trucking

 

Again I say use a gun that will make you look like you had no other choice than to use your old hunting gun to defend your life. I wouldnt use a gun that looks like you spent 1k+ so you could better kill someone, the state will murder you in court. Make you look like a mad man itching to kill someone so bad you bought a special gun just for that.

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While I'd probably be ok in my state from a legal defense standpoint, the other end is that you might not (Depending on the state or the department.) get your shotgun back.  While I probably would get mine back, all it takes is an asshole cop (And there are enough of them that I'm wondering when the decent cops are gonna have enough of them giving the profession a bad reputation.) and sadly, the good ones will just go along with his decision to not give it back (Which I consider theft.).

 

I think you need a reliable and accurate throw away.  In this day and age by God's good graces there are many to choose from.

 

Aside from the great love I have from owning my MKA, I recommend the 11-87, 870, 930, 590 and 500.  Some like the Mavericks as well and I do also hear good things about them.

 

I own an 870 and I like it.  I feel like I need to go back to the original stock though, I seem to be more comfortable with it minus the pistol grip (Which is odd for me as I love PGs.)  However mine has a telephone pole length barrel for hunting (26 in) and I want the Remington 18 in barrel that is choke friendly and midway is always selling out of them.

 

Also you could go the route of a Baikal semi auto 12 gauge and shorten the barrel to 18 1/4 or 1/2.  I know someone that has one and they are well made and affordable.  You'll find the Baikal MP-153 being imported by EAA and listed under the acronym USSG.  I am tempted to get one for myself actually.

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Thanks a lot of good opinions for both sides! GunFun I was thinking exactly the same thing, I want to take myself (outside of aiming reloading etc) out of the equation as much as possible. I do think as a trunk gun the pumps or semi/pumps might have an edge as generally when I'm driving I'm 100% awake and ready, not groggy and fumblimg in the dark. In terms of legality, I'm almost 100% sure here in VT I would not be unfairly pursued by a gun ban happy DA, but you never know. Definitely something to consider, but I think I'd rather increase my chances of survival to be in court if only slightly.

 

 

So I'll add another new piece to the puzzle. In addition to the first two topics (best mka HD build, and semi vs pump) which I still very much welcome posts on, I would like some opinions on this: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=388467364

It other than the fde which I can deal with, It looks pretty ideal. Thoughts on anything including price welcome.

 

Thanks!

Edited by Potss
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Regarding MKA builds, I highly recommend getting a new forend with a left hand charging handle. That way, if there are any issues, you can keep your strong hand on the grip. My T&N level 10 forend is my favorite upgrade and I would recommend it to anyone with an MKA. Along the same lines, I would also upgrade the stock charging handle and mag release. I wouldn't risk fumbling around with the smallish stock control surfaces. Lastly, upgrade the safety detent so you get a nice crisp selection.

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I think if you actually use a pump a lot and learn to never baby them and pump it like a man youll never have a problem.

 

I like the shottie on gun broker. But you could buy 3 or 4 870s for that though. Also as was said you mmy or may not get your gun back so consider that would you want to lose a 250 dollar 870 you could replace at any walmart or a sweet ar15 look a like shotgun that would end up "lost" in evidence and end up at home with some crooked cop.

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If you need more than 7 rounds during a home invasion, it's likely NOT some civvie thugs out to take your stuff.

I'd rather go for a second gun at that point.

 

Is three shots at one attacker outlandish? Based on the compilations of police incidents, it's not. People tend to miss. So one car with 3-4 home invasion burglars in it is going to run an average pump gun dry before each person is necessarily dealt with. I've read enough incident reports from my area that It seems like the average home invasion has 3-5 guys rush a place. Does it happen every day? No. But there's no advantage to having less rounds the time it does happen. 

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I think if you actually use a pump a lot and learn to never baby them and pump it like a man youll never have a problem.

 

 

That's true, some pumps like to be man handled.  My 870 has a smooth action but if I man handle it I know I'll never short stroke it.

 

If you gotta use a tube fed shotgun it's best to learn to shoot one load one.  And when that's not an option, top off your tube when you can.

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This is a good discussion, but I'd like to refocus a little. Like I said before, I do not have the time or money to put the hundred if not thousands of rounds in it will take to train up on pump shotguns to the level I am at on semi-autos. At some point in the future I certainly want to, and when that time comes I will likely revaluate my HD choice. But as of now in my specific case I believe semi-auto is the way to go. With that said I am seriously considering this: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=388467364

and would love some feedback regarding that specific shotgun, or any responces regarding my OP.

Thanks!

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Going semi doesnt pigeon hole you into a box mag fed you could go tube fed much cheaper than the 1919 and still have the advantages stated above. Plus get off cheapee but if you like the 1919 buy that one it looks pretty sweet to me

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The gun above looks well put together. On the other hand there isn't a lot of extra material in these and they can be damaged if disassembled incorrectly. 

 

The parts look nice enough, but I'd rather be the one who installed them. I'd suggest discounting your max bid a couple hundred from the sum of the gun and its parts.

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keep in mind that once you modify your butt stock on the MKA you have to make it 922r, you have to have at least 9 us parts i believe and someone correct me if i am wrong!

According to this info you only need to replace 4 foreign parts with US parts. You have to get the count down to 10 total foreign parts.

Replace is the key word , not add on.

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildMKA1919VerifyCompliance

Edited by SHOTGUN MESIAH
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keep in mind that once you modify your butt stock on the MKA you have to make it 922r, you have to have at least 9 us parts i believe and someone correct me if i am wrong!

According to this info you only need to replace 4 foreign parts with US parts. You have to get the count down to 10 total foreign parts.

Replace is the key word , not add on.

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildMKA1919VerifyCompliance

 

thanks for correcting me S.M. could not quite remember.  

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Yes I will certainly be ensuring 922r compliance with w/e I end up with. Thanks for the suggestion of calling T&N, I will most likely get an estimate from them as well.

 

Thanks so much for all the info everyone, Once I make my final purchase I'll be sure to post it up here!

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