7.62 vs 5.45

[Redrum4u 125]

I was thinking of getting a rpk. Which 5.45 seems like the better choice, longer range. I would like to give a 74 a whirl first though. Thanks for the input guys.

[semper299 284]

Ok heres a question: if someone already had a rifle in x39 and didnt plan on shooting corrosive ammo, would he be better served taking that money and expanding his stockpile of x39 or getting a 5.45 rifle and ammo to feed it? Im guessing to stick with x39 but reading this is makin me wonder more about the 5.45 caliber. Wish someone around here had one.

 

 

This is the only reason I do not own a 5.45. I stockpiles of mags and ammo for the 7.62 and 5.56. Just don't see the need for me right now to get into 5.45. Someday I probably will, but I would be just fine with having only those two calibers.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Yeah, id never planned on buying any corrosive ammo namely due to the fact that in a shtf kinda situation cleaning a weapon after every use might not be a luxury one could afford. To be honest ive never messed with any corrosive ammo so ive no real idea how thoroughly it would need cleaning. I think tho at current prices ill keep buying x39 and keep calibers consolidated. At least until i get to mess with someone elses 5.45 lol.

 

The only corrosive x39 ammo I've run across is the Yugo mil-surp with slightly corrosive primers. This is far better than ammo with corrosive powder as the amount of salts produced is very low in comparison.

Good ammo but dont see it but rarely now.  Use what I have for range ammo now as the GT stuff is just better made for easier storage.

 

The good old days of cheap mil-surp .... miss em.

[mancat 2,368]

I was thinking of getting a rpk. Which 5.45 seems like the better choice, longer range. I would like to give a 74 a whirl first though. Thanks for the input guys.

 

unfortunately most of the RPK-74s on the market are pretty high-priced. you can always grab a VEPR 5.45 23" bbl and turn it into somewhat of an RPK clone with the RPK buttstock and a clamp-on bipod.

 

used AES-10B and Yugo M72s are still pretty affordable 7.62x39 RPKs.

[Salmonking 149]

Yeah, id never planned on buying any corrosive ammo namely due to the fact that in a shtf kinda situation cleaning a weapon after every use might not be a luxury one could afford. To be honest ive never messed with any corrosive ammo so ive no real idea how thoroughly it would need cleaning. I think tho at current prices ill keep buying x39 and keep calibers consolidated. At least until i get to mess with someone elses 5.45 lol.

Windex followed by Hoppes. If all else fails you can piss down the barrel. Honestly, people overemphasize the impact of corrosive ammunition in a rifle that has all the important stuff chrome lined. If you take the time to shoot your gun, you can take the 15 minutes to clean it.

 

Now, if you plan on hunting, the 7.62x39 will have more ammunition types and be the better round within viable ranges.  Ammunition supplies during a SHTF situation will be what you have on hand, not what you can scavenge.

[EthanM 514]

If you were in a shtf situation with no way to clean your gun, you could alway use a creek. It is an ak after all.

[Jpanzer 1,265]

I get tired of reading about this phantom fear people have of shooting East bloc corrosive ammo. Do you really think Soviet or other Com bloc troops cleaned their weapons after every use?

 

I've read stuff written by Marco Vorobiev who served with the Soviet Airborne and Spetsnaz forces in Afghanistan, where he said all many ever did in that sandy, gritty, hot and cold country was to push a patch soaked in motor oil through the bore on occasion, and that only very infrequently. He also stated in the article I read that when on actual missions no one had the time to worry about cleaning weapons, and in garrison no one gave a shit. Their AK's still worked according to him, corrosive ammo or not.

 

The only place I've ever read where anyone has EVER had a complete failure using a AK with corrosive ammo is on internet gun forums. I've never read a single circumstance where this happened in the field in a actual combat situation.

 

Seriously people, shoot the frigging stuff and clean when and if you desire. Your rifle isn't going to melt if you fire corrosive ammo through it!

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

In a way I kind of agree, but that example is a bit misleading.

 

In the stan its dry... very dry.

 

Put that same discipline in say the Mekong Delta or err south LA and shit will rust.

 

Dont think I at least ever claimed it would cause failure, cant see anyone saying so. But pride of ownership will have its effect.

 

Shot tons of the corrosive in 308 down here and if it aint cleaned right it will show.

 

Sure it functions but it aint pretty.

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Rhodes, the rust can cause issues if severe enough I guess. But I've also read stories of our troops finding AK's in Vietnam supposedly rusted shut where all they did was kick the charging handle with their boot to free it up and the rifle still functioned fine.

 

I mean how many of us AK owners are so damn lazy we won't EVER clean our rifle? And if you get a little rust then run a brass bristle bush through the bore and lube as usual. Too many people have bought into this internet legend that corrosive ammo will destroy an AK.

 

Mikhail Kalashnikov didn't design them to be safe queens...

[SGL 530]

...supposedly rusted shut where all they did was kick the charging handle with their boot to free it up and the rifle still functioned fine.

 

 

[psl sniper 963]

Whats to ask? 5.45 for the win!

[BigChongus 765]

Another thing I don't see mentioned here that's pertinent to your question (since you said "shtf" use) is the weight difference between a loadout of each caliber. There's a massive weight difference between a pouch of four loaded surplus 74 mags and pouch of four loaded surplus 7.62 mags.

[Redrum4u 125]

I was thinking about it earlier, the weight

It's good idea to keep everything the same, have two interchangeable mags ammo.

I was just thinking something light for some range. 54r is too much for the misses and boy.

[6500rpm 670]

FMJ x39 is just an ass kicker of a round when it comes to punching nice size holes in things. I get a fair # of shot up cars at work and you're not going to hide from it in your vehicle (or in many cases, on the other side).

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Rhodes, the rust can cause issues if severe enough I guess. But I've also read stories of our troops finding AK's in Vietnam supposedly rusted shut where all they did was kick the charging handle with their boot to free it up and the rifle still functioned fine.

 

I mean how many of us AK owners are so damn lazy we won't EVER clean our rifle? And if you get a little rust then run a brass bristle bush through the bore and lube as usual. Too many people have bought into this internet legend that corrosive ammo will destroy an AK.

 

Mikhail Kalashnikov didn't design them to be safe queens...

 

No, he did not make a dainty firearm.

 

And I was trained to maintain a spotless weapon. It stuck.

 

Question, ever presented a less than clean weapon to that pissed off Sargent (hell he was always pissed).

Only once.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Rhodes1968

[Salmonking 149]

These guys abused the shit out of a saiga 5.45x39. They fired about 12k rounds through it without a cleaning for a year.  Here's a vid of the halfway point after they got the hand guard to catch on fire and the barrel warped. At the end of the year challenge, he shoots it with birdshot and it still runs like a top. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1s-5-0eoko

[psl sniper 963]

These guys abused the shit out of a saiga 5.45x39. They fired about 12k rounds through it without a cleaning for a year.  Here's a vid of the halfway point after they got the hand guard to catch on fire and the barrel warped. At the end of the year challenge, he shoots it with birdshot and it still runs like a top. 

 

Thats rifle abuse..

[LuPiN8oR 333]

As it stands i clean my aks after every 200-300 rounds, i like to keep it fairly clean as well. But i also live in a pretty humid environment. I picked the ak platform because of its legendary reliability but that doesnt mean ill let an investment degrade ya know lol. An above post tho does make me wonder if i should get a saiga in 5.56 or an ar--i dont have a single weapon in that caliber. It is a little hard to add another caliber these days tho...Dont mean to thread jack, my apologies.

[Arik 565]

Ok so If WNC means Western North Carolina than its not all that much humid then my SE Pa. If I shoot commercial I can go a year without cleaning. If I shoot Corrosive I generally clean that day, sometimes the next day. Nothing fancy, just a regular cleaning, takes 15 min.

[LuPiN8oR 333]

Arik, the very local environment i live in is pretty humid. I live in the woods on a north facing mountain that stays shaded so once it rains it takes forever to dry out. Glad to hear corrosive ammo isnt all that rough tho, if i ever see any in x39 and the cost savings is noteworthy i may try it out.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

As it stands i clean my aks after every 200-300 rounds, i like to keep it fairly clean as well. But i also live in a pretty humid environment. I picked the ak platform because of its legendary reliability but that doesnt mean ill let an investment degrade ya know lol. An above post tho does make me wonder if i should get a saiga in 5.56 or an ar--i dont have a single weapon in that caliber. It is a little hard to add another caliber these days tho...Dont mean to thread jack, my apologies.

 

I had the same thoughts cross my mind a while back. Came to some conclusions after a while;

 

First I was over thinking it, SHTF there will be larger fish to fry and as long as what I have is reliable and effective what more can you ask of yourself.

Second resources are always limited and one cannot cover every possibility.

Lastly I was too focused on the minutia of gear instead of the larger picture of my true aims.

 

So good luck working it out.

[scotheocelot 28]

I have AR's built for both 7.62x39 and 5.56 (close to 5.45).  Felt recoil is greater for the 7.62 but its not that significant.  You feel it more in your shoulder after 100rds, BUT I do not notice any difference in controllability.

 

As for available ammo I can only speak for Oklahoma/Texas area where I live.  During the "ammo crisis" the one round I could find almost anywhere I searched was 7.62x39.  My contacts could also find 5.45 and 5.56 but the price increases for both of those rounds left a bad taste in my mouth.  7.62 remained "reasonable" (and I use that term lightly) throughout all of the price gouging due to the fact it was so readily available in my area.  I could find tin cans of 500 or 1000 rds at 3 local gun stores all the time.  Hence why I built a dedicated 7.62 rifle.  I am banking on this round to be the best SHTF choice and will be adding an Arsenal AK to the safe now that prices are coming down.

[macbeau 902]

I prefer 7.62x39, but anything in X39 is fine.... If you can stock up on it.

Go with the rifle, mags, and ammo you can afford the most of...

BTW - If I wasn't so invested in 5.56 and 7.62x39, I'd go 5.45x29...

Just FYI...

 

Macbeau sends...

[Sim_Player 1,939]

I have two in 5.45, and one in 7.62x39. Both calibers have their merits.

 

I love the light weight, accuracy, and recoil of the 5.45.

 

The only 5.56 in the house (a Mini-14) just became my son's first gun. He will be buying his own ammo.

[storm6490 2,768]

I get tired of reading about this phantom fear people have of shooting East bloc corrosive ammo. Do you really think Soviet or other Com bloc troops cleaned their weapons after every use?

 

I've read stuff written by Marco Vorobiev who served with the Soviet Airborne and Spetsnaz forces in Afghanistan, where he said all many ever did in that sandy, gritty, hot and cold country was to push a patch soaked in motor oil through the bore on occasion, and that only very infrequently. He also stated in the article I read that when on actual missions no one had the time to worry about cleaning weapons, and in garrison no one gave a shit. Their AK's still worked according to him, corrosive ammo or not.

 

The only place I've ever read where anyone has EVER had a complete failure using a AK with corrosive ammo is on internet gun forums. I've never read a single circumstance where this happened in the field in a actual combat situation.

 

Seriously people, shoot the frigging stuff and clean when and if you desire. Your rifle isn't going to melt if you fire corrosive ammo through it!

I agree with you for the most part but you have to consider that most of the 5.45 rifles over here are not going to put up with corrosive ammo if you neglect them. The only auto loading rifle in 5.45 that can take corrosive all day with no love is the SAR2 since it has a chrome lined barrel and all the parts are made to deal with the salts. A century arms 5.45 will rot quickly if you don't change the ph of the surface areas after shooting it.

[Arik 565]

So you're saying that the SAR2 is the only one with a chrome barrel? Saigas, Veprs, Arsenals or any build with an original military barrel don't count?

 

I have a Vepr, a Norinco and a Bulgy side folder. All 5.45 and all with original chrome lined barrels and all get shot regularly and cleaned eventually and sparingly. None has had a problem. Not a spec of rust or corrosion.

[mancat 2,368]

you really have a Norinco 5.45? is it a custom build? I don't believe that many (if any at all) of their commercial makes ever made it into the country, and if you have one it's exceedingly rare and you probably know it.

Edited January 31, 2014 by mancat

[thebuns1 4,323]

My SGL31 sees a steady diet of corrosive, and dont get cleaned on a regular, and dont have any rust.

[Arik 565]

you really have a Norinco 5.45? is it a custom build? I don't believe that many (if any at all) of their commercial makes ever made it into the country, and if you have one it's exceedingly rare and you probably know it.

 

Its not original. Built prior to the 94 ban usnig the Norinco 84 reveiver, Russian fcg and Bulgarian parts kit

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Salts combined with water over time corrodes metal, in particular ferrous metals.

There is no reasonable debate it is hard science.

So why the variances in results?

 

Oxygen+ Salts + H2O + time 

Remove the causes remove the corrosion, the salts acts like a catalyst to greatly speed the process as the other components w/o salt takes much more time. 

 

Not all ammo components create the same amount of salts, one of the points of development in ammo was reducing the salts while lengthening storage life.

Non-corrosive ammo that stores for long periods was the result of this effort.

 

The ammo with only primers using salt creating compounds produces greatly reduced corrosive salts. Also an intermediary step in the process.

Yugo mil-surp falls in this class. Although technically corrosive it is much reduced.

Generally the older the ammo the more salt it will produce.

 

Having a low humidity retards corrosion as less is available to trigger the process. Fairly simple as water and oxygen alone can corrode if given enough time.

 

Cleaning ends the time component as well as removing the salts plus oil protects against water and oxygen. Of course eventually even oil is oxidized thus cosmoline and wax paper.  

 

On an AK the place I have seen the most indication is the interior of the gas tube, makes sense. So my gas tube is cleaned and lubed after each use.

It can even set up in the treads of the muzzle attachment if any over time. Any place water and air can touch metal, corrosion occurs given time.

 

Now to say these salt producing rounds do not corrode steel is just fantasy. Magnify the surface sufficiently and the damage is clear, little pockets of corrosion.

Chrome only delays the process it does not end it. True it delays the hell of it.

Different alloys corrode at various rates IIRC there is a designation for each alloy rating corrosive exposure.

 

Anecdotal evidence is utterly useless given the above stated variables. A rifle in the high Rockies is much less prone to showing corrosion than one in a jungle. 

The reason is clear.

 

Edit:

When ship wrecks are found in the bottom of the ocean, if deep enough, corrosion is occurring very slowly to almost non-existent since the water is almost oxygen free. One component is missing or too low thus...

Edited January 31, 2014 by Rhodes1968