grapher 0 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I bought a new Saiga 12 along with a reliability kit and installed it before ever even shooting the gun. When I took the gun out to shoot for the first time, it would fire the chambered round, but not even try to eject the spent found. It would just stay in the barrel. I was using cheap Winchester Super Speed loads. I went through all the gas settings, but never had any better luck. What do you think the problem might be? Should I re-install the original parts and try it like that or is it some other issue? Please chime in if you have any thoughts! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Ammo brand. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grapher 0 Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 What would be a cheap ammo that would work? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Yes put original parts back on/in it and try slow and light stuff on factory setting #2, heavy and fast loads on setting #1. What was the speed and weight of the ammo? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 What would be a cheap ammo that would work? Nothing less. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 My advice is to spend about an hour reading existing threads that discuss issues that are similar to yours. This way you will have a decent starting knowledge base. You will get good responses here, but it would be to your advantage to read up a little. Try searching google for Saiga 12 forum FTE. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grapher 0 Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Ok I will give that a shot Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Ok I will give that a shot Pun intended? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grapher 0 Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Yes put original parts back on/in it and try slow and light stuff on factory setting #2, heavy and fast loads on setting #1. What was the speed and weight of the ammo? 1oz 6 shot 1350 fps My advice is to spend about an hour reading existing threads that discuss issues that are similar to yours. This way you will have a decent starting knowledge base. You will get good responses here, but it would be to your advantage to read up a little. Try searching google for Saiga 12 forum FTE. I already did that and could only find people recommending to add a reliability kit (which I already did). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Most Saiga 12s need a break in period before they will operate reliably. 200-300 rounds may do it, or cut that amount in half and hand cycle hard 200 or so times. Don't baby it, and if this doesn't work the gas ports may need to be enlarged. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I already did that and could only find people recommending to add a reliability kit (which I already did). I think you might be mistaken, or read it wrong. Most will advise against the reliability kit. At least on this forum, can't speak for the hill rods who don't visit here but recommend things on other forums. Hand cycling can help (no mag no ammo tho). Baseline bone stock with factory five round mag before changing things. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grapher 0 Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I already did that and could only find people recommending to add a reliability kit (which I already did). I think you might be mistaken, or read it wrong. Most will advise against the reliability kit. At least on this forum, can't speak for the hill rods who don't visit here but recommend things on other forums. Hand cycling can help (no mag no ammo tho). Baseline bone stock with factory five round mag before changing things. What do you mean by "hand cycling can help (no mag no ammo)? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 You don't wanna be cycling ammo through the gun while sitting on the couch. And there's no need for a mag to be in it. Just "rack it" a whole bunch. Pull back and let it fly home. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,742 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 My advice is to spend about an hour reading existing threads that discuss issues that are similar to yours. This way you will have a decent starting knowledge base. You will get good responses here, but it would be to your advantage to read up a little. Try searching google for Saiga 12 forum FTE. I already did that and could only find people recommending to add a reliability kit (which I already did). You didn't read enough because most will recommend that you DON'T add the kit. Start with the stickies and the threads in Gunfun's sig-line. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grapher 0 Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 You don't wanna be cycling ammo through the gun while sitting on the couch. And there's no need for a mag to be in it. Just "rack it" a whole bunch. Pull back and let it fly home. Ok I will give that a try. How much should I do it? Im going to take the gun back to the range on Friday. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Pick a number Add 500 Lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Just read more. This gun will change your life. You gotta polish drill and caress this bitch. There ain't no pixy dust kit, you gotta read up. Edited January 23, 2014 by K.o.t.H. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 List of suggestions not in any order. Hand cycling. Moving the bolt back and forth. Helps to bring the springs into the correct range, and also helps smooth things up. Springs start their life with a hard shell, that shell breaks up with just a hundred or so cycles of compression and decompression. Also using a little grease on the receiver rails is common practice for break in.. Notice I said "a little" meaning a thin coating not pasted on. Once the high spots have smoothed off you can run less grease or oil. If your using the shotgun in a sandy environment remove the grease. Check your barrel ports, its not unheard of for them to become plugged with plastic from the wad. Also, just to be sure. Make sure the gas puck is in the gas tube. And if your running the improved ones, be sure you have it facing correctly.. You could try it in factory mode just to be sure. And I highly recommend using Federal brand 1 1/8 ounce loads to start with. The powder seems to generate a favorable gas pressure curve for the Saiga 12 to operate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,930 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Yep. Minimum 1 and 1/8 oz shot at minimum 1200 FPS. You need to see both weight and velocity of the ammo to know how much power it has. Ignore side-track terms like "slug" "Buckshot" "High brass" &"Low brass." Those are all beside the point and will lead to needless confusion. You need to know how much force the shell is exerting, not the shape of things inside of it. Lots threads use those terms, but they are not going to help you at all. (more precisely any combination of weight and speed. that shows up on the 3 dram row HERE) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Are you getting enough or any gas? If properly equipped, it is very easy to chill the entire shotgun in the deep freeze, then knock out the pins and slide hammer off the front site base. If you want to waste a CO2 fire extinguisher, that also will really chill off the gas port area. Are there any gas ports in the barrel, or are they aligned properly? Crazy things happen. Like long ago when a brand new Colt AR15A2 HB would not function. Had no gas port at all. Yep. None. Also there are lots of posts here on how to open up the existing gas ports your barrel may or may not have. The key here is enough gas to goodly cycle the cheap WW 3/4 oz #7.5 shot 2.75 drams equal low base ammo.... ....PLUS have the ability to stop most of the extra gas when cycling the max blast 3" 15 pellet 00 buck high base loads and not beat the heck out of your Saiga 12; or your shoulder. Getting that balance is part of the charm and fun and madness of the Saiga 12 platform. I think it is fun fixing this stuff....others will disagree. HB of CJ (old coot) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Inspector 12 37 Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 What would be a cheap ammo that would work? Nothing less. My Saiga was reluctant to run the Federal shells even after I hand cycled the bolt a bunch and had done some work to smooth the high spots in the action. I opted to send mine to JT Engineering for Jack's "reliability" work, figured it would be faster and cheaper in the long run to have someone that knows more than I work the action over. The list of work he does for the price made it an easy decision for me. In the end I won't realize the satisfaction some do at doing the work themselves, but I also won't experience the frustation of over modifying a part that is difficult to replace. . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,930 Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Are you getting enough or any gas? If properly equipped, it is very easy to chill the entire shotgun in the deep freeze, then knock out the pins and slide hammer off the front site base. If you want to waste a CO2 fire extinguisher, that also will really chill off the gas port area. Are there any gas ports in the barrel, or are they aligned properly? Crazy things happen. Like long ago when a brand new Colt AR15A2 HB would not function. Had no gas port at all. Yep. None. Also there are lots of posts here on how to open up the existing gas ports your barrel may or may not have. The key here is enough gas to goodly cycle the cheap WW 3/4 oz #7.5 shot 2.75 drams equal low base ammo.... ....PLUS have the ability to stop most of the extra gas when cycling the max blast 3" 15 pellet 00 buck high base loads and not beat the heck out of your Saiga 12; or your shoulder. Getting that balance is part of the charm and fun and madness of the Saiga 12 platform. I think it is fun fixing this stuff....others will disagree. HB of CJ (old coot) HB-- Those numbers are a lot lighter load than what most can achieve without compromising the top end. 3 dram eq is what most people manage. i.e. 1 1/8 oz at 1200 FPS/ 1 oz at 1245... Exactly as pictured above. Shot size is beside the point. High base or low base is similarly off track, as it no longer has any necessary relation to the power of the shell. If yours runs ammo that weak without beating itself with the heavy ammo, you've got a better than average S12. If mine was tuned to run ammo that light, I think I would want a gas plug with a more restrictive magnum notch. Other than that, I agree with your post. As CSSpecs aluded to, breaking in with expensive ammo is a complete waste of time, hand cycling the spring, and slicking up the rough spots with sand paper will do far better, faster and much more cheaply. OP- I suggest starting by slicking up the rails with sand paper, profiling the hammer, and test firing with the ammo shown above and OEM parts. If that cures it, great. If not, enlarge the ports slightly and test again. 4 @.078" is a good starting minimum, to a max of 4 @ .093" 5 small ports is better, maybe 5 @ .076" to start. Obviously the ports need to be unobstructed and angled. This gun can be brought up to speed and better for $1 worth of sand paper, a file for the hammer, and maybe $4 in drill bits for the ports. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 had the same problem I suggest you send your internal parts to Pauly and I bet your weapon will work once you get your parts back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) had the same problem I suggest you send your internal parts to Pauly and I bet your weapon will work once you get your parts back. Shit.....we all be old and retired before the members who already have parts with Pauly get them all back.http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/91231-has-anyone-heard-from-pauly/ Cobra Customs can do the bolt mod and will get your parts back in a very reasonable amount of time. Edited January 26, 2014 by Jet 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 had the same problem I suggest you send your internal parts to Pauly and I bet your weapon will work once you get your parts back. Shit.....we all be old and retired before the members who already have parts with Pauly get them all back.http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/91231-has-anyone-heard-from-pauly/ Cobra Customs can do the bolt mod and will get your parts back in a very reasonable amount of time. From what I understand Cobra is getting parts finished and shipped extremely quickly, and from looking at his recent pics like this one the work is excellent. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brickfield mfg 86 Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Shit.....we all be old and retired before the members who already have parts with Pauly get them all back.http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/91231-has-anyone-heard-from-pauly/ Cobra Customs can do the bolt mod and will get your parts back in a very reasonable amount of time. From what I understand Cobra is getting parts finished and shipped extremely quickly, and from looking at his recent pics like this one the work is excellent. Cobra does an excellent job with a fast turn around time. You won't be disappointed if you send him work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerasaurus 9 Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 So, forgive me if I'm dense... Wait. We know I'm dense... Anyways, I think I'm with the folks telling him to bore into his gas ports, but I'm having trouble understanding what, exactly, his problem is. Is his bolt simply failing to cycle (shoot and no scoot)? Is the extractor failing? If the bolt isn't moving at all, I highly doubt it's the problem (though running full-power combat loads will find out for sure). If it were me, the first thing I'd do is invest $5 in a box of slugs or 00 buck. Put it on setting 1 and see what happens. If you still get no bolt movement, all the polishing in the world ain't gonna help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grapher 0 Posted January 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 When the gun fires, the bolt doesn't move at all. It doesn't even try to eject the shell. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brickfield mfg 86 Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 List of suggestions not in any order. Hand cycling. Moving the bolt back and forth. Helps to bring the springs into the correct range, and also helps smooth things up. Springs start their life with a hard shell, that shell breaks up with just a hundred or so cycles of compression and decompression. Also using a little grease on the receiver rails is common practice for break in.. Notice I said "a little" meaning a thin coating not pasted on. Once the high spots have smoothed off you can run less grease or oil. If your using the shotgun in a sandy environment remove the grease. Check your barrel ports, its not unheard of for them to become plugged with plastic from the wad. Also, just to be sure. Make sure the gas puck is in the gas tube. And if your running the improved ones, be sure you have it facing correctly.. You could try it in factory mode just to be sure. And I highly recommend using Federal brand 1 1/8 ounce loads to start with. The powder seems to generate a favorable gas pressure curve for the Saiga 12 to operate. Did you check this? It sounds like it is not getting ANY gas. The puck inserted backwards would cause this! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Like I said mine did the same thing and the gas system was just fine. The problem was the parts just were not compatible. Send them to Cobra he's a great guy I sent mine to Pauly because I lived in Seattle and he was in Portland Oregon. Pauly did great work for me but that was a while back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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