CruisinTx2 49 Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) I recently acquired a new 410 and on the first outing to test fire, found this: It didn't want to extract the spent shells from the chamber. It would only pull them out about a half inch, then the new round coming out of the magazines would jam against the round still in the chamber. Once I removed the magazine and got the jammed round out of the way, I could let the bolt slam shut and then easily eject the spent round by hand. Sometimes it had trouble getting new rounds into the chamber. I had to bump the bolt several times to feed a round all the way in. I was using RIO 3" magnum #4 game loads. I tried both the factory original magazine as well as one of the 15rd mags. Both yielded the same results. I also tired both the 1 and 2 setting on gas piston adjustment; same results on both. I have read most of the posts here about similar problems up to about page 7. There does not seem to be a consensus on what the problem is. I found some posts indicating it is an ammo problem saying the wrong ammo won't work. Yet some folks say one type works while others say it won't work in their particular gun. Then others say after polishing mated moving parts, the gun gobbles up any ammo used. After that some are saying the gas plugs or other adjustments are necessary to make the gun feed/eject properly. The latest of these posts is nearly a year old. So, is there any new, reliable information on what would cause a gun to act like I described in my opening statement? My dealer has the gun now and says he thinks it needs polishing & deburring on all the moving parts. He is doing this at no charge but I thought in the mean time, a little more research from owners wouldn't hurt our effort to get it right. What say ye? My dealer and I are open to first hand, experienced advice. Edited March 2, 2014 by CruisinTx2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunman1 1,753 Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 First question that comes to me is....have you replaced the rectory trigger set (FCG)? Have you done a full conversion on it, as described in the various conversion threads? Does it happen when you fire 00-buck shot or slugs? Now I will tell you that my S-20 will not RELIABLY cycle any low brass rounds, it is reliable only with 00-buck shot or slugs. Personally, I think "my" problems all relate to drag, mainly between the bolt and hammer and the rails, and I guess I'm just too damn lazy/cheap to do anything about it. I do not intend to use my gun for hunting "little furry animals", as it is a battle weapon, therefore I'll stick to the high power stuff. All of this is just my stupid opinion though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted March 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 At this point, I have made no modifications. I wanted to see what the factory fresh version would do before spending any more $$ or time. I am hoping at some time, all of the advice here and from my dealer will have it working reliably enough to depend on it as a primary home defense weapon. Once reliability with factory configuration (and proper ammo) is established, I do plan to do a tactical conversion kit of some type. I will certainly be seeking advice here on that as well. Until such time the Saiga is working properly, I will continue to rely on the two pump shotguns (410 and a 20ga) currently in the house along with a Dan Wesson 6" revolver, Browning Hi-power, and a Hi Point 9mm carbine for home defense. Why so many? There is a loaded firearm within seconds of any location in the house. Intruders usually don't wait for you to say, "wait a minute let me get to my arsenal and load something to shoot you with." If there is a break-in here, the only sound the intruder will hear is the faint click of the safety being released. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
adjc 171 Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) have you tried American made ammo in it? the reason i ask this is i have a s410 and bought a case of the 3" Rio ammo and had the same problems you speak of. you could load the 4 rd mag and the first one would chamber after that hopeless. once i switch to any American made ammo....problems were non existent. same with 2.5 ammo when using the 2.5 magazine. in my case it was the imported Rio ammo. Edited March 2, 2014 by adjc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted March 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 The RIO is the only thing I have tried so far. When my dealer first heard of my problems, he immediately offered to try and correct it. I dropped the gun off at his shop yesterday morning and left him a box of the RIO along with 10 rounds of Federal Premium in #4 buckshot. I was hesitant to use the more expensive Federal ammo until I saw that the gun was working properly. I'll know better next time. I'm going to let him do his thing on polishing and deburring and give it another go. It will likely be next weekend before I get another chance at it as our weather is shaping up to be in the deep-freeze this week. Thanks for the input. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PFerris 76 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 I think what you have described above is normal for low power shells. If you load the factory mag with 3 inch winchester 000 buck or other comparable ammo in velocity and weight of shot. Then, shoulder the weapon and shot it and I bet the gun will perform as it should. I did a conversion on mine and added a gas regulator to get it to shoot most ammo available. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) OK. I'm not doubting what anyone here has said; this IS my first auto-loading long gun other than a 22LR. Here's what is confusing to me. If the lesser powered shells are pulling on the brass at a "fast" rate and leaving the shells partially in the chamber while my old slow hands are pulling at a much slower rate and get a perfect ejection every time, how does the bolt moving "faster" with more powerful shells make the extraction pin work better? As far as these guns are concerned, I am a blank slate; educate me please. Edited March 4, 2014 by CruisinTx2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 It's about momentum. Your slow old hands pull with consistent continued force. The shells exploded the gas vents and follows the path of least resistance. Often times with newer guns that means the gas system and down the barrel. I'm curious if you have the old gas system or the new one. The old gas system the puck looks like a thimble with some holes in it. The newer adjustable One has a solid puck and two position plug. If your using low power shells on the high power setting there's your problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 The gun was new from Saiga last month. Has the two position adjustment on the end of the piston. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ballistic brick 3 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Hey all, new to this forum but I have had 2 saiga 12s and a 7.62.. 1 is completely custom converted from mach1including polished bolt, realigned gas ports and low recoil conversion parts. The other is a factory sgl1207. the saiga 12 has disclaimers on just about every websight that sells them stating that low power or low recoil shells are NOT recommended at all. The gun is made to cycle full power shells. I use 2 3/4 federal flight control shells and my guns both eat em like a fat kid eats cake. Some will chew threw bulk pack ammo but some will not no matter how much tinkering you do with it. They did however try to remedy the problem with the adjustable gas system. Try the low recoil on setting 2. If it doesnt run try turning to the #1 setting. It completely opens the gas holes on #1 to allow max pressure to get that bot back to eject the spent shell. Also the break in period for a gun that hasnt had the bolt properly polished can be up to like 400 round before deburing and break in is complete. If the gun doesnt cycle full power loads on #2 after polishing and breaking in, you have a bigger problem and should promptly return the s12 to the distributor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ballistic brick 3 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Sorry I just read the first post saying you have a saiga 410. You must use full power loads. The 410 has barely enough gas on the full #1 setting to push the bolt back far enough and fast enough to make full ejection possible. Very fun guns but you're gonna have to bite the bullet and buy better more expensive ammo. Less power ammo= less reliable gun 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted April 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 A new twist in this Saiga saga. My dealer is still working on the 410 and says it is now working fine with the 4-shot OEM magazine and the Federal #4 buck shot as well as some Federal #4 game shot he tried in it. The next problem is that the #4 buckshot rounds will not fit properly in the extended 15-round magazines. He says they jam up after about the 4th round and the mag will not accept any more than that because of the length of the shells. I compared one of the Federal #4 buckshot rounds to a Federal #4 game shot round; sure enough the buckshot shell is about 1/8" longer than the game load. This sort of defeats the purpose of having the darn thing with 15 round magazines loaded with buckshot for home defense. Any thoughts on high capacity magazines that will accommodate the longer shells? Maybe thoughts on magnum buckshot rounds that will fit the fifteen round magazines? I plan to study the magazines very carefully when I pick them and gun up tomorrow to see if it might be possible to modify them enough to let the #4 buck load up without jamming before reaching full capacity. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ticknc 5 Posted April 25, 2014 Report Share Posted April 25, 2014 Start with the Pinned section in 'Saga .410' called 'Different Shell Sizes'. Read the directions that came with the gun or use the size that is stamped on the gun. The Saga 410 was truly designed to work with Russian ammo (Silver Bear, Golden Bear). Shotgun ammo, esp .410 ammo is to varied to expect reliability out of the box. Use ammo that others on the forum have had good luck with. If you want to increase reliability using different types of ammo on your Saga .410, you will have to modify or tune your gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted April 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2014 (edited) Hey all, I appreciate all the responses so far. I got the 410 back from my dealer earlier this week and took it out for a test fire. It does indeed, fire the Federal 3" with #4 buck shot (handgun loads) without a hitch from the factory magazine while it still has trouble with the RIO ammo. My dealer did some serious polishing on all moving parts as well as the beveled edge where the extractor engages the shell rim. His thoughts were that taking a little off there might allow the extractor to get a better grip on the rim. My big problem now is that the Federal 3" mags are too long for the 15rnd magazines. I am going to play around a bit with a "wildcat" load in that I plan to cut the top off the shell, remove 1 pellet and recrimp against the 8 remaining pellets. That will lighten the projectile load but retain the original powder charge while shortening the shell to fit in the 15rnd magazines. According to loading data I have, #4 buckshot is 0.24" in diameter, so removing 1 of those and recrimping the roll with card, should shorten the shell just enough to allow ~3/32" clearance going into the magazine. I'll let you know how it works out a few days after I get the roll crimp tool. If I didn't already have 140 of those shells I might not bother with this experiment. But if it works out, I think I will have a very effective home defense load that fires reliably in the Saiga. Wish me luck! Edited April 26, 2014 by CruisinTx2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lenf 5 Posted April 27, 2014 Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 CTx2 Just walk away from the RIO shells the small amount you save per box is nothing compared to their low quality and variable performance. I've used a wide variety of shells and the Barnaul, Seller & Bellot, Remington and Winchester work just fine. Try a couple of different brands and measure the over all length of the unfired shells. Federal 3" Handgun loads measure 2.88". Remington 3" Express loads measure 2.63". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted April 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Yeah, I can see the RIOs are not worth much more effort than to use them up in my pump. If modifying the Federal handgun loads fails as well, they can also be used as is in the pump. If they work out, I'll modify most of them and keep a few for the pump; it'll fire & eject everything I put in it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) OK. I got those Federal Handgun shells cut off to a length with about a 1/16" to spare inside the 15rnd magazines. I was first able to test them Friday afternoon and at first they did not want to feed out of the mag. into the chamber. These magazines are all plastic and I think because I had left the first one fully loaded and in my hot shop for several days, the rim of the first round had slightly imbedded in the magazine causing it to resist feeding out. I tinkered with that for a while with no luck then manually pulled 5 shells out and tried again. The first one needed a little bump assist to feed into the chamber; after that, BAM! They all fired without a problem. Next I loaded up the 10 #4 buckshot I had left with 4 #4 Federal game loads (also modified to fit the magazine) on top of that. All of those fired perfectly so I am now going to modify all of the shells that are too long. I'm going to try to shoot a short video of the process today just in case anyone else has a bunch of shells that are too long for their magazines. In doing those first 24 rounds, I figured out a very good and simple way to get a near perfectly square cut at exactly the same length every time as well as a good way to hold the shell safely while re-crimping. Having a pretty good drill press helped in getting the crimps consistent. I've never uploaded a video anywhere before so I may ask for some assistance in doing that either here or on You Tube. Again; I'd like to thank all those who offered up help here. I am now getting pretty pleased with my Saiga 410. A tactical conversion kit will be the next step in getting it just the way I want it. I'll probably go over to the "Lets see some 410 conversion pics!" thread as a starting point. I think I also saw a thread somewhere listing shell lengths of various brands, so I suspect that will also be a good place to visit. Edited May 11, 2014 by CruisinTx2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) Wow, I had no idea it took so long for a You Tube video to upload. Anyway here it is after about a 2.5 hour upload. The video is 5:16 and gives a pretty clear look at how I shortened the Federal shells to fit the Saiga magazine. If I had only a couple boxes of these I would not have bothered with this process, but I had 7 boxes and really don't have mind to shoot them all through my pump. That said, I spent a few dollars on the roll crimp tool and got to have some fun with one of my favorite hobbies -- being innovative. I have also used the same process to shorten the #4 game loads from Federal which worked out just as good as the #4 buckshot loads. I suppose I can use this method on any other factory 3" shells that are a touch too long for the 15rnd magazines. I timed myself on two boxes of 20 after getting a little practice on the first four this morning. I am able to do a box in about 27 minutes; so not a lot of time invested to make them work the way I want. enjoy Edited May 11, 2014 by CruisinTx2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
{ROS}_me 32 Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Thanks for the vid. It answered some questions about converting some bird shot into a wax slug load . That roll crimper looks to do a fine job ! Got to shoot a few mags yesterday and can add 2 known to feed in SGM 15 rounders....... Remington HD 3inch 000Buck , black box marked HD Ultimate Home Defence 1125fps Reminton Express Long Range 3inch #4 shot. green and yellow box marked 3" Long range 1135fps My gas setting was on "1" and had "0" FTF/FTE out of 3 diff. 15 round mags The shotguns only internal mod. is an CSS gas puck . So far I haven't had to dial up the gas " setting #2" as it ejects most shells 10 -15 feet out of the shotgun . Thanks again for the vid. me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted May 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Yeah. That was my first ever online video. I was a little nervous & working without a script. I noticed I made a slight mistake stating the rpm was 290. It was actually set at 390. Other than that, it all went pretty well. Unfortunately, it may have all been for naught as we were evacuated from our home last night due to wildfires only two blocks away. We may not know what's still standing for another day or two. Heck of a way to spend your 60th birthday eh? Edited May 12, 2014 by CruisinTx2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
{ROS}_me 32 Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Yeah. That was my first ever online video. I was a little nervous & working without a script. I noticed I made a slight mistake stating the rpm was 290. It was actually set at 390. Other than that, it all went pretty well. Unfortunately, it may have all been for naught as we were evacuated from our home last night due to wildfires only two blocks away. We may not know what's still standing for another day or two. Heck of a way to spend your 60th birthday eh? sorry about the fire and hope all goes well with you and yours me Edited May 12, 2014 by {ROS}_me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted May 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 (edited) Actually got a report about 30 minutes after my edit saying house and shop are still standing. Hope a in person visit will confirm that. Edited May 13, 2014 by CruisinTx2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
{ROS}_me 32 Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Actually got a report about 30 minutes after my edit saying house and shop are still standing. Hope a in person visit will confirm that. You and yours pull through this ok? Saw on the news that they might start letting folks back in a few days. me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted May 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 (edited) Yeah, we only lost my utility trailer and the full cover hard top from my Jeep Scrambler. Across the street; every house on the eintire block burned to the ground. We took about three hundred pictures yesterday after a couple hours of cleanup. I'm planning to get those on Facebook tonight or tomorrow & will put a link here. Losses so far are estimated at 225 homes and 140 out buildings totally destroyed. If you want help those who lost literally everything, designate money for Fritch fire victims with the Red Cross or send donations to the Celebration Church, Fritch, Texas. Edited May 15, 2014 by CruisinTx2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted May 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 A good link for more information is: myhighplains.com // according to a currently on air broadcast, there should be multiple links to the event & relief effort. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
{ROS}_me 32 Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 A good link for more information is: myhighplains.com // according to a currently on air broadcast, there should be multiple links to the event & relief effort. You might want to move this to the "general" section of the forum ...........only a few of us die hard "ugly stepsister" .410 lovers are left here . Glad you guy's made it me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CruisinTx2 49 Posted May 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) OK. I've now had chance to run about 60 rounds through the 15rnd magazines. I still cannot get them to feed shells into the chamber when filled to capacity. The first two to four need encouragement (and some cursing) to feed out of the magazines at the proper angle to enter the chamber smoothly. I have ruined about eight of the as they get deformed when jammed into the bottom edge of the chamber while coming out of the magazine either horizontal or even nose down a little. I'm continuing to tinker with it all for a while longer. Meanwhile, the high capacity magazines seem to work perfectly if I load only 10 shells in them. That said, I will keep them at that level until I can find a solution to the full-up jamming dilemma? Edited May 17, 2014 by CruisinTx2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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