Thoughts on groupings

[Barrage 33]

Hey guys, quick story.

 

I bought an Arsenal SGL21-61 used in 2012 for $600 (sweet deal).  Around the same time I bought around 2,000 rounds of a mix of Tula/Wolf/WPA and threw them all in the same cans loose, like a fool. 

 

The original owner of the rifle is a reputable guy, by most standards.  He told me that the rifle had seen "thousands of rounds", and I didn't think at the time to see if he could ballpark that a little closer.  He said it had been used as a demo gun at suppressor shoots as well as taken to training classes. 

 

This winter I took it out for the first time in probably 6-8 months or so.  I figured I'd try and make sure it was still zeroed and fired 5 rounds at 25 yards and had something horrendous like a 5" group with no real pattern to it.  These were firing from prone.

 

A couple weeks later Atlantic got in a fresh batch of PK01V's that I'd apparently told them to notify me of when they got back in stock.  I bought one, tightened it up, and attached it to the rifle.  I also installed a G2 trigger group on the same day, thinking it may also shrink my group size.  I grabbed some of my grab-bag ammo (either Wolf/Tula/WPA) and headed out to my 25y range in my back yard, with similar results.  Even firing VERY slowly, taking my time, practicing proper breathing and trigger control/follow through.  Still a sloppy looking group (pictured)

 

 

That seems a little horrendous to me for an Arsenal with a red dot at 25 yards.

 

I ran the results by an AK guru on a local forum and he recommend I try different ammo. 

 

Today was actually warm in Indiana so I bought some 123grain MFS 7.62x39 and I headed out to the range.  I set up a make shift bench which seemed stable and just sat back for about a half hour taking my time trying to place good shots (regrettably I only had one target left...and some cardboard and a marker.)

 

Here are the two groups I shot.  The target on the left is MFS 123 grain which I shot first, the second "target" is my grab bag ammo, after clicking the PKO1V to the left a few clicks. 

 

Shoot me straight, fellers.  Think it's the problem of a crappy shooter (you won't hurt my feelings) or do you think there could be something at play with the rifle?  What should I look for?  You can see the tape measure on the right target, that's almost a 3" group at 25 yards from a bench with an optic, slow-firing. 

 

Any advice you guys could pass along would be really appreciated. 

[csspecs 1,987]

Are you shooting from a rest like a sand bag? Or are you holding the rifle in your hands?

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Need more info on the rifle set up. It could be something as simple as a wobbly flash hider, or scope mount.. or it could be something like a damaged crown.

[Spacehog 2,218]

Well the grouping on the left is better than the one on the right. Anytime you mix ammunition between brands, bullets grain weights, etc. your groups are going to open up. You were wise to eliminate that factor. The target on the left actually looks as though you had some flyers, but also had several rounds punch out the paper. With that said, I would not be happy at all with that grouping at 25 yrds. A couple of questions:

 

Was your first grouping that you opened up the thread with iron sights, or did you have an optic mounted?

 

You questioned your skills versus the gun's ability to shoot with precision, so my next question would be do you own any other rifles that you shoot regularly? If so what kind of groupings do you get at 25 yards? If they are considerably better, then I would be looking at the gun itself (i.e rifling, bore condition, optics, and mounts) If they are not, then practice, practice, and practice.

[mancat 2,368]

shoot with the muzzle device removed to see what happens.

 

make sure the optic clamp is in fact tight. the locking clamp can be adjusted by removing a small clip at the bottom, and move the clamp arm clockwise on the splines.

[Barrage 33]

Thanks for the replies guys, really.

 

I actually went back through a ton of my history on my local forum and found the original seller's contact info.  He PM'ed me this morning and said he honestly remembers putting only around 1,000 rounds through it, I've put maybe 800, so it's really a baby in it's life. 

 

I will remove the muzzle brake next time I shoot, and I will only shoot ammo from unopened boxes next time I do tests.  I *did* tighten the clamp on the PK01v, and grabbing on to it and trying to force it around it doesn't move, but I may tight it another tooth or two just in case.  I'll also post pictures of the crown when I get home from work.

 

As far as my shooting ability, the only other rifle I own is an AR build, every time I try and buy another rifle I wind up buying another shotgun.  It's a Spike's lower, Daniel Defense upper.  It has an Aimpoint Pro and a Geissele SSA in the accuracy mod department.  Generally speaking casually shooting my groups can range from a ragged hole at 25 yards, to the size of a quarter depending on how long I'm taking.  I don't know if that would translate to the groups your seeing, I don't know. 

 

It should be nice out today as well, I will try and get some more lead downrange and see if anything improves. 

 

Thanks again for the replies!

[thebuns1 4,323]

Let someone else shoot it also, just to see what happens. Those ain't terrible, but they aren't great either. With an optic, they should tighten up more. Hard to say at this point, but at that rage it should be better.

[Barrage 33]

OP actually delivers!

 

Alright I picked up some better targets and 3 boxes of WPA 123g HP's, not because I think they're great but just because they'd be more consistent with each other than my grab bag ammo (most of which I discovered is Tula). 

 

 

 

I tightened up my optic and removed my muzzle brake and started zeroing.  Ignoring the zeroing 3-round groups in the center target I started with the group on the bottom left, 5 rounds all within 1". 

 

I gave my optic another click to the right and shot the group on the top left. A little wider, around 1.5". 

 

From there I shot the group on the top right, again about 1.5 or so. 

 

 

 

After that I set up a new target and reattached my muzzle brake to see if that was the culprit (I knew it wasn't, but I'll have more on that later).  Here's the next group fired on a fresh target:

 

 

About the same as the last two groups.  I fired a few similar groups and by this point the barrel was starting to get pretty hot and my eyes (and concentration) were getting a little fatigued. 

 

Against my better judgment I threw up another target and this horrible group happened:

 

The group in the middle looks pretty similar to my old groups.  The group on the bottom left was almost funny, lol.  Nice dice pattern...it was all over.

 

Just to make damn sure that I was just getting really fatigued I grabbed my AR and shot the top left target through an Aimpoint Pro.  Yeah...I was feeling the fatigue, lol.  Nice to have verification though!

 

 

So what was the problem?  I think I was being a cocky bitch for the most part. 

 

As soon as I sat down this time I took my mind back to the basics.  Slow down.  Good cheek weld.  Stop breathing.  Slow squeeze and follow through.  It immediately struck me what I wasn't doing last time: cheek weld.  After the first shot I noticed the stock slipped down my cheek and the dot was way off center in the optic.  I started pulling the trigger again but stopped and thought "what the hell are you doing?"  From then on I *really* started focusing.  Keeping tight on the rifle and locking it down was when I'd get my best groups.  I did notice the table I was shooting from had a decent amount of sway. 

 

I think there are a couple other minor factors at play that could tighten them up a little further, but on the whole I think I just needed to shoot better.  Shooting from an actual bench, not a wobbly card table and a lawn chair (hey, I said I lived in Indiana).

 

Anyway, I don't know how do better my endurance for eye strain, but it's at least nice knowing that "rifle is fine".   Goes to show what mental gymnastics you can put yourself through when your ego gets in the way. 

 

Thanks for the replies, guys, and thanks for the help!

 

Oh and a bonus pic for those who stuck around!

 

Edited March 11, 2014 by Barrage

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

It looks like the group improved with the brake installed.

 

I would be looking at that crown real close or have someone watch for flinch. 

[Spacehog 2,218]

Glad that you got it figured out, and that you were able to get additional range time that fast. Nice AK by the way. We can all be cocky bitches at times, although I find myself marvelling at the juxtaposition of those two terms right now.

[Lone Eagle 839]

Yeah, Tula is crap.  Only reason I bought a case last week was it was on sale, and makes good range fodder or suppression fire.  I reach for Wolf or Brown Bear mostly.  I picked up several different brands to try in both the Saiga and the M68 this spring, from Arsenal to Fiochhi.  I still have my scoped 50 yd target from last year.

 

This was initial dial in for a 50/200 zero, 2-6x32mm NcStar, zoom on 6 for spotting purposes.  Ammo was Silver Bear 125grSP(my intended hunting load until I try the Federal Fusion I have) on a Redfield target.

 

 

I dialed it back to a 2, slid it off the side rail, popped 5 rounds irons on the 200yd gong(5 hits), scope back on, and did this

 

 

This was Tulammo 122gr FMJ, 100yds, irons, offhand standing, 30 round mag, 1 round per second, center hold on 6" paper plate on a 16x20 backer.  The right target was my old AR on American Eagle before I got the hang of the peep.  Notice 3 rounds of Tula on the AR target.

 

 

The Tula stayed on the plate until the barrel got hot.  After that, it was all over the place.  Still combat approved, though.

 

This was 5 rounds of WPA I shot irons at 200 yds offhand standing for giggles.  Backer is 16x20" torso size with a center hold after first 2 flyers.

 

 

Not too shabby with my bad eyesight and a combat rifle.

 

ETA:  I lost my Yugo M67 and BVAC 123gr targets.  The M67 would keep them in a 6" circle at 200yds, and the BVAC was a shade over 4.5". 

Edited March 12, 2014 by Lone Eagle

[mancat 2,368]

LE you should be happy with your M68 then. If I try hard enough I can shoot about a 3-4" group at 200 with the AES-10B and a 4x PSO using Wolf.

[Spacehog 2,218]

LE you should be happy with your M68 then. If I try hard enough I can shoot about a 3-4" group at 200 with the AES-10B and a 4x PSO using Wolf.

And I wish I had your AES-10B. It is a very nice rifle.

[Lone Eagle 839]

I'd be happy with 3-4" groups at 200.  That's still a deer of elk in the freezer if needed, and good enough for a DMR.

 

For the M68, my oldest gave me his old 4-16x-40mm scope off his .308.  The 2-6x is tuned for the Saiga, and staying there.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Lone Eagle