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Finally got some accuracy numbers at 100 yards


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#1 Kmainaz89

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:00 PM

Hey guys,

 

So this whole Saiga 308 thing has been quite an adventure for me from some super awesome to super frustrating times. My hopes for this rifle have started to come back into sight after my range trip today... but with a few modifications.

 

My rail/optics combination is:

 

TWS Dogleg Gen 2 Dust Cover Rail

SWFA 1-6

Nightforce Ultralite rings

 

After my experience today, I will most definitely be trading out the TWS to a Side-Mount (probably the RS Regulate).

 

This is a huge bummer since I love having the rear peep sight on the rail which gives it a longer sight radius, and it much easier for me to line up than the standard rear leaf sight. If anybody has any suggestions as to where I can still find a rear peep while using a standard dust rail, please let me know!

 

So onto my experience today...

 

I bought myself a Lead Sled DFT to help remove as many of my human-error variables as I possibly could. Especially considering the first trip I made after getting my scope setup (I was all over the target because it was windy, I kept flinching, and I didn't have a proper rest for the gun). And before any of you throw any negative remarks to me getting the Lead Sled, please keep them to yourselves!!! I understand they are not 100% dead balls Nasa accurate compared to other shooting styles, but it DID help me actually come up with multiple and consistent groups that I can actually get some numbers from.

 

Anyways; after finally getting a good idea of where I needed to sight my scope, I began doing 4-round groups. After the first 3 groups, I noticed a pattern:

 

The first round was ALWAYS low and to the left. Human error? Maybe, But as I finished 4 more groups, it was the same thing every time. My bet, is that every time after I loaded my magazine with 4 rounds, and cycled a round into the chamber, it threw the "zero" off on the TWS Rail. But then after firing the first shot, it returned to the true "zero" spot every time with each shot after.

 

I used completely different types of ammo for each group and also ensured on the last 4 groups that I was handling the gun in the exact same manner with each shot.

 

So with that said, the following are my results from today. I decided to leave out the first shot since it was always off, so I went with the remaining 3-shots as my true result. The quarter is just to show that I'm not trying to BS you guys.

 

Attached File  Saiga 308 100 yard 1.jpg   66.13KB   12 downloads

Attached File  Saiga 308 100 yard 2.jpg   68.76KB   8 downloads

Attached File  Saiga 308 100 yard 3.jpg   61.82KB   8 downloads

 

I first measured the groups in inches, then converted them to their respective decimal point. However I was sort of estimating each group, so I decided afterwards to measure in millimeters (it was easier for me) and calculated the groups much closer to what they actually are.

 

With all 7 of those groups, they average a smidge under 1 3/4 MOA at 100 yards. (1.72")

 

I am pretty pleased with this average as I've seen some people averaging closer to 3.

 

So with these new findings, I plan on selling my TWS Rail and getting the RS Regulate Side-Mount to hopefully tighten those groups a tad more. If anybody is interested in purchasing it, please let me know with a private message. (I apologize in advance if I take a little while to respond as I don't consistently check this website).

 

Sorry for the long post guys, but thanks for reading. Happy shooting!



#2 unforgiven

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:38 PM

I dont have an ak style 308, so I cant speak to what it should be able to do.
I can only compare to what I shoot in 308


But at 100yds with my AR10, I get all rounds touching
At 200 yds a quarter can cover all rounds
At 600 yds I can keep them all on an 8" plate, at 800 i can keep them all on an IPSC steel(no idea of group size just on the steel)

All fired off bench with my loads
My m1a is not quite that good but real close
Jim

#3 utahhandyman

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:06 PM

I bet with a better scope mount you will see some improvement. not bad for a saiga.  What ammo did you use and how long is your barrel?

Dont pay attention to Jim. You cant compare a 2000+$ rifle to a 800$ rifle and factory ammo versus hand loads.


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#4 utahhandyman

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:13 PM

The rear dust covers always move. You would need a rail that would cover the receiver front to back. Call Cameron at Chaos and see if this will fit a 308. I'm guessing not but he might have some in the works

https://www.chaosus...._QUAD_RAIL_REAR


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#5 csspecs

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:19 PM

The ar15 forum had a "1 MOA all day" challenge that was meant to tame down the rampant claims of accuracy.. Seemed to work for a short while.

Oddly most of the shooters claimed 1 MOA but only actually got 2-4 including several with AR10s. 

I would love to see actual pictures of groups, not trying to call you out, but it would be cool to see.

 

To the OP

Your first shot being low was something that a few of us have noticed. Its likely a difference in the velocity of the bolt closing, in high frame rate recordings we noticed that the bolt carrier actually rebounds off the back of the receiver.

What I started doing was setting multiple targets at range, and then loading six rounds in the magazine and dumping the first one at a separate target.. Its good to see first round point of aim, but also good to see what the rest do.

 

I'm not sure your going to see much difference switching mounts. If your still set on selling it, please PM me the price. I would like to own one.


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#6 Rhodes1968

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 12:58 AM

The ar15 forum had a "1 MOA all day" challenge that was meant to tame down the rampant claims of accuracy.. Seemed to work for a short while.

Oddly most of the shooters claimed 1 MOA but only actually got 2-4 including several with AR10s. 

I would love to see actual pictures of groups, not trying to call you out, but it would be cool to see.

 

To the OP

Your first shot being low was something that a few of us have noticed. Its likely a difference in the velocity of the bolt closing, in high frame rate recordings we noticed that the bolt carrier actually rebounds off the back of the receiver.

What I started doing was setting multiple targets at range, and then loading six rounds in the magazine and dumping the first one at a separate target.. Its good to see first round point of aim, but also good to see what the rest do.

 

I'm not sure your going to see much difference switching mounts. If your still set on selling it, please PM me the price. I would like to own one.

 

Amen and +100

 

The TWS has nothing to do with the flyer its a common result on a lot of rifles. Frankly adding the TWS was one decision I have never regretted. 

 

Want better accuracy, do your own load development, seems lower weight rounds (110gr for instance) work very well with the Saiga barrel.


Edited by Rhodes1968, 13 March 2014 - 01:00 AM.

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#7 unforgiven

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:38 AM

The ar15 forum had a "1 MOA all day" challenge that was meant to tame down the rampant claims of accuracy.. Seemed to work for a short while.
Oddly most of the shooters claimed 1 MOA but only actually got 2-4 including several with AR10s. 
I would love to see actual pictures of groups, not trying to call you out, but it would be cool to see.
 
To the OP
Your first shot being low was something that a few of us have noticed. Its likely a difference in the velocity of the bolt closing, in high frame rate recordings we noticed that the bolt carrier actually rebounds off the back of the receiver.
What I started doing was setting multiple targets at range, and then loading six rounds in the magazine and dumping the first one at a separate target.. Its good to see first round point of aim, but also good to see what the rest do.
 
I'm not sure your going to see much difference switching mounts. If your still set on selling it, please PM me the price. I would like to own one.


I didnt mean to be a derogatory, its just the results I get and expect.
I have no idea what to expect from an AK type gun.

Keep in mind I shoot tens of thousands of rifle every year and have spent lots of time developing loads.

some factory ammo does only make 4moa in my 308, or even worse!
I dont take pictures of groups, I have nothing to prove .

You can be sure that the ammo you use can make all the difference.
And yes I am a high end gun guy, that does not mean I dont see the value in the AK platforms.
Jim
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#8 Rhodes1968

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 02:37 PM

Well pics of groups are fairly handy when diagnosing problems, otherwise its just bad gun porn.Think Ive posted one set of targets in my life and I was chasing a problem and comparing ammo.

 

Main reason I started reloading was for better ammo. Still chasing the "perfect" load in the balance between accuracy and other criteria but its fun.

The 110g Amax work REAL well so its a keeper, wish I could still get it easily. We used to have a guy on here that got his S308 down to 1-1.5MOA using them but it took a lot of load testing.

 

I think what sets folks off is seeing someone claiming the impossible knowing some guy will think his rifle has a problem because its not  making a clover leaf at 100m with mil-surp ammo.

Bad Juju

 

Even with a $2k AR-10 Jim you put in a hell of lot of time in getting those results and dont claim to be using Tula or worse, that is both possible and commendable. Good work.

 

I am tickled to get 4MOA out of the Saiga 308 with that crap steel ammo, 3 with good brass German mil-surp (*sighs* gone forever it seems) but battle rifles are not for competition. Heart, lung, liver, what does it matter...


Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#9 Makaveli913

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 07:18 PM

what length is your barrel? i just went this weekend to zero my scope at 100 yards. i was very happy with my resualts.21 inch barrel cheap clamp on bipod side mount with sniper brand 4x16 scope. got four bullets in the same hole walked it down to the bullseye that was my last group. all with tula and harters 

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#10 Bunker83

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 08:36 PM

Hornardy superformance 150 gr sst, every one wants to know what the saiga 308 can do, but they shoot the cheapest shit they can find, I've shot all kinds of ammo thru my saiga and it loves Hornardy . My bolt action colt loves federal blue box (cheap ammo)
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#11 Makaveli913

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 09:41 PM

now that i got my scope zeroed in ill test some match militay surp and some hornardy... i was happy with what i did with the tula. looks spread out but you can see the groups i like the one in the 4 area with 4 hits touching and in the 2 area 6 shots and 3 holes



#12 Makaveli913

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 09:47 PM

pic of mine ! wood folder wink.png

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#13 Rhodes1968

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 09:48 PM

Last time I looked into it Tula and Herters is the same ammo just different packaging.

 

Good range ammo, but you have what you paid for. 

 

BTW I dont own any firearms... they are dangerous 


Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#14 Kmainaz89

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:15 PM

Great feedback guys.

 

Its always nice to see ideas/constructive criticism passed around for the better. As for me changing my mount, I'm still set on doing so. Mostly for the reason that I have no problem with a little trial and error to eventually end up with something I'm proud of. After all it's the frustrating/hard times we go through that makes us better at what we do, right?

 

I have the 21" barrel and was using various types of ammo from $16-$28/box and 145gr-167gr.



#15 Netpackrat

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 11:50 PM

The first round was ALWAYS low and to the left. Human error? Maybe, But as I finished 4 more groups, it was the same thing every time. My bet, is that every time after I loaded my magazine with 4 rounds, and cycled a round into the chamber, it threw the "zero" off on the TWS Rail. But then after firing the first shot, it returned to the true "zero" spot every time with each shot after.

 

You already have the best scope mount for your rifle, and I will bet your bet is wrong.  Did you let the rifle cool at all between shots?  The Saiga .308 is very prone to shifting the point of impact as it heats up, and my rifle will do the same exact thing if I don't space my shots out a bit to compensate for heat build up.  The reason you are noticing it more with the first shot, is because the rifle is never as cool as it is when you press the trigger on the first round, especially the first shot of the session.  You notice less shift with shots after the second because you've already got a round down the barrel and some heat build up in the system.  If you let the rifle cool fully between shots, I think you will find that your groups are centered around the point that you are now thinking of as low and to the left.  It is very tempting to blame the scope mount and not the inherent nature of the rifle, because this carries with it the hope of being able to throw money at the problem and making it go away.  But in the end, if you change to a different scope mount, I think you will find that you spent that money for no gain.

 

I started out with a side rail mount scope, and changed to the TWS rail.  I did not notice any change at all in group size, or in group behavior (i.e. POI shift) when I did this.  I did notice a decrease in bulk and weight, plus the ability to fold my stock to the left, and add a backup peep sight.

 

If you are still convinced that the TWS mount must be the problem, cycle the bolt back hard a few times before firing a group.  This will have the same effect that firing the rifle does in terms of making sure the mount is fully seated, maybe more so.  But I suspect you are already doing this.


Edited by Netpackrat, 16 March 2014 - 12:06 AM.


#16 Netpackrat

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 12:03 AM

The rear dust covers always move. You would need a rail that would cover the receiver front to back. Call Cameron at Chaos and see if this will fit a 308. I'm guessing not but he might have some in the works

https://www.chaosus...._QUAD_RAIL_REAR

 

Wrong.  The TWS rail is not like a regular dust cover mount because it is pinned solidly at the front hinge (AKA the former rear sight block), and held solid at the rear by camming action of the purpose-made takedown button.

 

Here is an example of what my TWS and 3x9 Redfield equipped S.308 will do from a cold barrel, taking my time between shots.  And yes, the first shot is the one that is low and to the left, as the OP observed:

 

308t-1.jpg

 

And here is the second group I fired that day.  Note that despite taking my time, it continues to heat up with each shot, and the group size grows:

 

308t-2.jpg

 

By the time I had fired the fourth group, it had grown to 2.9 inches.  It's frustrating, but usually you are most concerned with your first shot or two from a cold barrel.  Try to set your zero to where you know that will be, and keep in mind it is going to shift as it heats up.



#17 utahhandyman

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:38 AM

Wow, I bet you can see russia from your house too.


he asked about other rear dust cover mounts, not the tws


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#18 Netpackrat

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:36 PM

Wow, I bet you can see russia from your house too.


he asked about other rear dust cover mounts, not the tws

 

You should read his post again, and actually pay attention this time.



#19 Crazyvwobie

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:24 PM

As someone who has both types of mounts, tws and the RS side mount, I love them both for different reasons. My saiga 308 has a tws because it's a solid mount ,sits the lowest and I'm able to get a good cheek weld which you can't do very well with a side mount. I also like having the peep . I'm very happy with my groups . I use a vortex pst 1-4 power and it wont even fit on a side mount without sticking back too far . I have the same scope and mount on one of my arsenal's For the side mount I love the RS mount with my aimpoint pro and I'm able to cowitness , I don't think it's a good choice for a scope but that's my opinion.

#20 Unknown Poster

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 09:09 PM

Benchmarking my 308 /16" barreled Saiga with no scope she shoots 1 1/2" groups at 100yards using south African surplus 308 ball ammo. I didn't benchrest my 22" barreled Saiga yet. I like them for deer and bear hunting. I post about them on hunting semi auto forums only to deaf ears. Guys are stuck on those remington etc. I guess they can't accept a nib Saiga at the time being under $300.

Or is it a commie rifle that stops them from buying them. I think there the hottest buy on the planet since the norinco sks arrived.



#21 Tokageko

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:54 AM

Re:  First round low and left

 

I'm one of the other members that csspecs is referring to, and I've had this problem on a couple of .308 caliber semi-autos.  I've been able to fix all of them by doing the same thing:  Replace the recoil spring.  I've done this to my saiga, an LR-308, a .308 Garand, and an HK91.  Near as I can tell, there's a difference between in-battery-enough-to-fire and completely-locked.  It's a teeny tiny difference, but it's there.  There are two ways I've checked in order to come up with this.  One is to pull the bolt carrier all the way back, as far as it can physically go, before letting it fly to strip that first round.  The other is to push forward on the bolt/carrier once it's in battery.  You may or may not be able to feel it give, but you'll probably notice that your first shot doesn't go low and left when you've done either of these. 

 

On a gun that's seen thousands of rounds down range, you may just need a new standard weight spring.  On guns that are newer, there can be other things to look at.  For instance, if the cartridge drags excessively as it comes out of the magazine, it can slow the bolt/carrier to the point it doesn't have enough energy to fully lock the bolt.  Same goes for the carrier/piston (or op-rod in the case of a garand or M14) dragging on something.  Examine the parts for bright shiny spots.  These spots are evidence of burnishing, which can be either from two steel parts rubbing against each other, or impacting each other. 

 

In a case like that, lubrication is the first thing to try.  If that doesn't do it, metal removal could be next on the list  ...unless too much metal would need to be removed, in which case you're talking about parts replacement.  If it's just parts rubbing though and the gun is new, it's called break-in. 

 

If the feed lips on the magazine are leaving scars on the cartridges, or it's just hard to get the bolt to push them out of the magazine, try a different magazine.  Loading fewer rounds can make a difference as well, but it cuts down on the functionality of the system.  A lighter spring could help, and it's cheaper to replace if messed up.  Sometimes modifying the feed lips helps. 

 

The one thing that has always helped though, has been a newer/stronger recoil spring. 

 

In conclusion, and I say this with all love and respect:  Quit wasting ammo and replace the damned spring.  ;)


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#22 Tokageko

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 04:09 AM

Also, Re:  Lighter bullets,

 

The best accuracy I've ever gotten has been with 155 grain bullets.  Granted, I haven't tried anything *really* light, such as Speer's 125 grain TNT (which my .300 Blackout loves) or any of the 110 grain bullets.  I will make a note of it once I have more time to shoot and am closer to sea level again.  The twist rate on Saiga .308 barrels is something like 1 in 12.6 inches.  Without over-complicating things, this means that the heavier the bullet you use, the faster you'll have to push it to get it to stabilize.  Sticking to lighter weight bullets then means you can load them to lower velocities and there-by reduce recoil, which should allow you to shoot more accurately.

 

Just a few thoughts.  Thank you for listening.


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#23 Rhodes1968

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 11:13 AM

Roll damn Tide or War damn Eagle, whichever way you roll T.

 

Love the Speer TNT, may be able to load it light but I prefer to keep those at @3kfps and the barrel seems to like it there anyway. Not at max load so its comfortable and the brake eats the recoil anyway. Will try some of those lead free bronze tipped rounds at 130g if I can find a steady source.


Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#24 Tokageko

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 05:50 PM

Tide.  I'm not even a fan of football generally, but still the Tide.  lol  Oh well.  I'll be back soon enough. 

 

Either way, I've managed minute of angle groups with my S-308 using 155 grain Sierra MatchKings.  It was with 42 grains of IMR 8208 XBR powder, federal cases, cci br-2 primers.  What load are you using for the 125 grain TNT's?


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#25 Rhodes1968

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 07:37 PM

I settled at 47.5 IMR 4064 IIRC. Hope to get it the range this week and do some 300yd work.

 

Used to be a huge Bama football guy till the egos got to be just too damned much, Bear would never have tolerated it. It aint just them either.


Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#26 Jim Digriz

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 08:44 PM

The RS Regulate mount is a great idea. I'm getting great results with mine at 200 yards. Also, despite what some say over here, the consensus over at theakforum.net seems to be that the TWS does not hold a precise zero.


Edited by Jim Digriz, 08 July 2014 - 08:46 PM.


#27 Kmainaz89

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 03:50 PM

I've had my RS Regulate mount for a few months now, but haven't been to the range yet to test how the accuracy has been affected. Mostly due to it being so damn hot! I'll probably hit the range sometime in late September, early October to see how it does.

 

Thanks for the info, Tokageko. I'll probably try replacing the recoil spring once I get back to shooting. I believe my Saiga was made in 2008 and I bought it used with "only a few hundred rounds through it". But we all know how accurate that can be.



#28 -Indy-

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:01 PM

WB Tokageko!!! Havent seen you round here in ages!!!

 

My personal favorites were 125 grainers. Was able to keep group size about an inch, give or take. Some were a little smaller, some were a little bigger...  110's and 150's shot about the same, and it only got worse as bullet weights got heavier.

 

Dont have any specific load data to share, as I have no clue...  Even with the log book, I dont always write down which loads went through which rifle... If I had one that was truly noteworthy, it MIGHT have gotten written down! LOL  ( yeah, yeah... whats the point of a log book, if you arent keeping a log?!?!?!? )


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#29 m1key

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 03:17 PM

Shot this six-shot group @ 100 yds today (1.85") with some new handloads (150 FMJ Hornady and 47.0 gr  H380, Win primers, WCC brass) off the bags with iron sights and 65 year-old-eyes. This the best accurate FMJ load I've tried out of this 20-inch rifle to-date..

 

The RSO was a bit grouchy today, so I left early and went home to cook up some more rounds. I haven't had that much luck with reloads or factory recently and frankly was considering selling, but now I think this Saiga is a keeper. I still have about 3 pounds of this powder and will be looking for more...

 

 

M

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Edited by m1key, 21 September 2014 - 04:35 PM.


#30 TxAgSaiga1979

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 10:55 PM

I have a 16.5" barrel Saiga 308 that shoots 3/4 MOA repeatably.

 

The Kalinka scope mount, on the other hand, required me to re-sight in my Nightforce scope every time I went to the range.

 

I think its a flaw in their 2-piece design, and I wanted something I could use that would allow me to field strip and clean without having to disturb the scope.

 

 

Back to the drawing board, but I have some ideas about an alternate design for a scope mount...






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