There is a new kid in the Saiga 12 Conversion business :)

[Shandlanos 1,470]

 

 

 

There's nothing wrong with a competent home conversion kit type build, or screws either. if your test fire includes a guarantee to run 3 dram equivalent ammo, then you are offering something of value- especially to those who are afraid to do the simple work it may take to get there. This can be your selling point if you make a clearly defined guarantee.

 

Glad to hear you say so Gunfun!  I was starting to think that you were against anything that wasn't welded...and I just don't think that welding (and the refinish work that goes with it) fits into my business model right now.

 

I do agree with you that rivets are a nice touch.  And originally, I had intended to use rivets on the trigger guard, but then I ABSOLUTELY fell in love with the CSS guard, and I don't believe that there would be any way to use rivets with it.  Besides, the way that the CSS guard is designed, you don't see or notice the screws unless you are looking inside the gun itself.  I use locktite on the screws, so once it's on...it's not coming back off.

 

I may go ahead and see if I can come up with an efficient way to use rivets instead of hole plugs on the FCG holes though...what do you think of that idea?

The FCG plugs are ok as a basic conversion but I would definately offer welding the holes as an option. Looks much better.

 

If I could come up with an efficient way to rivet the holes...would that have appeal?

 

Probably. It wouldn't be very difficult, if you have a shop press. You might be able to use one of the AK builder rivet jigs.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Shandlanos

[HighPlainsDrifter 466]

I am going to look into the MD trigger guard and riveting for reducing costs as you suggested.  I am somewhat in love with the CSS trigger guard though...it will be hard to convince myself to change .

 

Riveting the trigger guard will be a small step that sets your services above that of a home conversion.  Investment in tools is minimal.  You would also have to create the square hole in the receiver for the pistol grip lug nut.  Many new owners aren't comfortable creating holes in their receivers, especially when they haven't done it before.  Doing so again set's you apart from home kitchen builders.  

 

I personally would put on the AK builder trigger guard set which has the optional selector stop.  It's more closer to the original.  Also get the Saiga-12 Conversion Drilling Guide which makes creating the trigger holes and the hole for the pistol grip nut a breeze to make.

 

MD-Arms trigger guard can be found at "What-a-Country".  I haven't seen it anywhere else.

 

To save costs Red Jacket reuses the trigger guard from the sporter configuration by reshaping it and turning it around.  I don't care for this but at least they finish it off with rivets.

 

My personal opinion is riveting the trigger guard is essential.  It's a small detail but critical in getting my business.  If I heard a smith using a bolt on trigger I would shake my head and move on.     

 

I believe the niche you need to fill is catering to those who want a build a step above a kitchen conversion and priced below that of established vendors.

Edited March 24, 2014 by HighPlainsDrifter

[saiga12conversions.com 13]

So, let me get this straight. You don't currently have an FFL (yet), but are advertising FFL services and quotes to forum members, and bouncing off JT Engineering to establish your price structure.

 

This may seem like a dumb question, but before you qualify for a business membership, don't you need an actual FFL and a business license, before you begin to solicit business here?

 

Goodness gracious man...

 

- If you took the time to read the thread you would know that Gunfan was the one doing comparisons with JTE (he has a very high opinion of JTE).  I actually asked him to AVOID making such comparisons...because I don't want any chance of animosity between the business members.  

 

It is my impression that the business members here try to help each other...not tear each other down.

 

- AND....when Gunfan (not me...Gunfan) compared our price structures...I stated that our price structures, and the conversion package that we offer, is DIFFERENT, and SHOULDN'T be compared.  Where did you get the impression that I am "bouncing off" of JTE for anything?  I have done nothing but praise the work of the other business members, and I do not appreciate you accusing me otherwise.  Why try to poison the well?

 

- There is no question of IF I will get an FFL but WHEN.  The ATF field agent has already visited my place of business and approved the location.  Did you notice in my reply that I previously owned a GUN store.  These people know who I am, and have delt with me in the past.

 

- What is the issue with me joining the forum before the builds start?  Have you never seen a "Coming soon" banner in front of a store?

 

- I believe that there are a number of business members here who are not FFL holders.  It is not a "requirement".

 

 

And to think....I'M A LIBERTARIAN TOO!  LOL 

Edited March 24, 2014 by saiga12conversions.com

[saiga12conversions.com 13]

 

So, let me get this straight. You don't currently have an FFL (yet), but are advertising FFL services and quotes to forum members, and bouncing off JT Engineering to establish your price structure.

 

This may seem like a dumb question, but before you qualify for a business membership, don't you need an actual FFL and a business license, before you begin to solicit business here?

I don't see why you would. A "business license" is not even a thing in a lot of places, and the internet sure doesn't give a shit. It's perfectly legal to advertise FFL services for the future - actually delivering them without a license would be illegal.

 

 

Help...in the most surprising of places...thanks for preventing a snowball Shandlanos.

[gunfun 3,931]

No need to come up with an efficient way to rivet they exist already:

 

 

And for the trigger guard, you can make punches and use a 3 lb sledge or use a $100 HF shop press. 

p.s. once you have the tools, rivets are faster and easier than screws. Again there are touches that seperate out sloppy work. i.e. off center squished heads vs round dome, etc. I actually like flattened dome, but the snobs wand hemispherical.

[saiga12conversions.com 13]

So, let me get this straight. You don't currently have an FFL (yet), but are advertising FFL services and quotes to forum members, and bouncing off JT Engineering to establish your price structure.

 

This may seem like a dumb question, but before you qualify for a business membership, don't you need an actual FFL and a business license, before you begin to solicit business here?

Ok...so let's turn a negative into a positive.

 

Since there has been such a stink about the FFL, I would like to announce its issuance with a gift. Once the license is issued, I will offer one free conversion to one interested forum member. My only stipulation is that the member post a thread with a thorough review of the conversion after they receive it.

 

It will probably be about 2 weeks before I receive the license. Anyone who is interested...just visit saiga12conversions.com and click the "About/Contact L.F. Armory" link at the top of the page. There is an option under this link to email me your questions. Send me an email (only one per member please) stating that you are interested in the free conversion. Please also list your forum member name. I will pick a winner when the License is issued...who knows...I may pick more than one . While you are there...please check out the website and tell me what you think.

Edited March 28, 2014 by saiga12conversions.com

[Shandlanos 1,470]

 

 

So, let me get this straight. You don't currently have an FFL (yet), but are advertising FFL services and quotes to forum members, and bouncing off JT Engineering to establish your price structure.

 

This may seem like a dumb question, but before you qualify for a business membership, don't you need an actual FFL and a business license, before you begin to solicit business here?

I don't see why you would. A "business license" is not even a thing in a lot of places, and the internet sure doesn't give a shit. It's perfectly legal to advertise FFL services for the future - actually delivering them without a license would be illegal.

 

 

Help...in the most surprising of places...thanks for preventing a snowball Shandlanos.

 

My pleasure.

 

Just because I jumped down your throat in your first thread doesn't mean I want a fight or I have a problem with you

 

Since the business members pay a fairly hefty monthly fee for the privilege, it irks me when I see what appears to be a brand new account, not yet even a contributor, created solely for the purpose of advertising a business, without respect for the forum's rules or the other business members. That assumption was incorrect, and I jumped the gun, as it were. Juggs says you're a business member in progress, and that means I get to swallow my pride and apologize for being an ass - sorry, sir. That's on me. We still have a difference of opinion on Tapco.

[EthanM 514]

 

There's nothing wrong with a competent home conversion kit type build, or screws either. if your test fire includes a guarantee to run 3 dram equivalent ammo, then you are offering something of value- especially to those who are afraid to do the simple work it may take to get there. This can be your selling point if you make a clearly defined guarantee.

 

Glad to hear you say so Gunfun! I was starting to think that you were against anything that wasn't welded...and I just don't think that welding (and the refinish work that goes with it) fits into my business model right now.

 

I do agree with you that rivets are a nice touch. And originally, I had intended to use rivets on the trigger guard, but then I ABSOLUTELY fell in love with the CSS guard, and I don't believe that there would be any way to use rivets with it. Besides, the way that the CSS guard is designed, you don't see or notice the screws unless you are looking inside the gun itself. I use locktite on the screws, so once it's on...it's not coming back off.

 

I may go ahead and see if I can come up with an efficient way to use rivets instead of hole plugs on the FCG holes though...what do you think of that idea?

The FCG plugs are ok as a basic conversion but I would definately offer welding the holes as an option. Looks much better.

 

If I could come up with an efficient way to rivet the holes...would that have appeal?

Riveting the holes would be more appealing. Its a step up from plastic plugs. I also really like the CSS trigger guard. Its a great trigger guard. Edited March 24, 2014 by Ethan

[james lambert 3,059]

Someone should get a screw machine shop to make some cool rivets for the fcg holes

 

Kinda like the plastic ones but steel and with black oxide finish

Jim

[mike989 1]

Saiga12 don't let these house frows talk you out of your business plan for a simple, reliable, quick turn around conversion. If I didn't have the tools I have or access to, I would have been looking for a simple, basic quick conversion. Your 100% correct, not everybody knows or wants to know every fine detail, they just want to know they didn't have to wait a year just to get on the list.

I know my thought are in the minority sooooooooooooooooooooooooo

flame suit on boys!! lol

[saiga12conversions.com 13]

Saiga12 don't let these house frows talk you out of your business plan for a simple, reliable, quick turn around conversion. If I didn't have the tools I have or access to, I would have been looking for a simple, basic quick conversion. Your 100% correct, not everybody knows or wants to know every fine detail, they just want to know they didn't have to wait a year just to get on the list.

I know my thought are in the minority sooooooooooooooooooooooooo

flame suit on boys!! lol

 

Alright!  Finally, a light at the end of the tunnel.  LOL.  I was starting to wonder if I had opened up a surf board shop in the middle of a desert!

 

I am hoping that the quality of my conversions will be established when the recipient of the free conversion posts their review.

 

Until then, I AM paying close attention to the advice given by skeptics such as Gunfan.

 

I am leaning strongly towards offering the option to have the FCG holes riveted at no extra charge.  Gunfan settled the question of whether it is doable...now I just need to make sure that I am happy with the way the rivets look.  (I know that many of the purists here look down on nylon "rivets"...but they actually look very, very good in my opinion...and when installed properly, they will stay put forever).

[Wagnikov 186]

I don think it's a material debate, more so eliminating the scars of the botched neutering our poor babies had to endure because our government is scared of law abiding citizens. (Extended rant) steel or plastic rivets in useless holes are a constant reminder of the ever encroaching loss of our freedom. Therefore it is unconstitutional to allow the holes to prevail. Lol! big huge deal to some, insignificant to others. Do the best job on the conversions as you can, and stay responsive to your customer base.(that's the people actually who give you money for your services)and learn as you grow. People make shit waaay too hard.

[saiga12conversions.com 13]

I don think it's a material debate, more so eliminating the scars of the botched neutering our poor babies had to endure because our government is scared of law abiding citizens. (Extended rant) steel or plastic rivets in useless holes are a constant reminder of the ever encroaching loss of our freedom. Therefore it is unconstitutional to allow the holes to prevail. Lol! big huge deal to some, insignificant to others. Do the best job on the conversions as you can, and stay responsive to your customer base.(that's the people actually who give you money for your services)and learn as you grow. People make shit waaay too hard.

Will do .

[rockmup 12]

 

So, let me get this straight. You don't currently have an FFL (yet), but are advertising FFL services and quotes to forum members, and bouncing off JT Engineering to establish your price structure.

 

This may seem like a dumb question, but before you qualify for a business membership, don't you need an actual FFL and a business license, before you begin to solicit business here?

 

Goodness gracious man...

 

- If you took the time to read the thread you would know that Gunfan was the one doing comparisons with JTE (he has a very high opinion of JTE).  I actually asked him to AVOID making such comparisons...because I don't want any chance of animosity between the business members.  

 

It is my impression that the business members here try to help each other...not tear each other down.

 

- AND....when Gunfan (not me...Gunfan) compared our price structures...I stated that our price structures, and the conversion package that we offer, is DIFFERENT, and SHOULDN'T be compared.  Where did you get the impression that I am "bouncing off" of JTE for anything?  I have done nothing but praise the work of the other business members, and I do not appreciate you accusing me otherwise.  Why try to poison the well?

 

- There is no question of IF I will get an FFL but WHEN.  The ATF field agent has already visited my place of business and approved the location.  Did you notice in my reply that I previously owned a GUN store.  These people know who I am, and have delt with me in the past.

 

- What is the issue with me joining the forum before the builds start?  Have you never seen a "Coming soon" banner in front of a store?

 

- I believe that there are a number of business members here who are not FFL holders.  It is not a "requirement".

 

 

And to think....I'M A LIBERTARIAN TOO!  LOL 

 

 

 

So, let me get this straight. You don't currently have an FFL (yet), but are advertising FFL services and quotes to forum members, and bouncing off JT Engineering to establish your price structure.

 

This may seem like a dumb question, but before you qualify for a business membership, don't you need an actual FFL and a business license, before you begin to solicit business here?

 

 

 

- What is the issue with me joining the forum before the builds start? 

 

 

 

 

 

 Have you ever even done any builds ?  I ask because your posts ( all of them) make it sound like you haven't. Generally someone who is offering a service doesn't ask the question's or make the comments you're making.

Edited April 6, 2014 by rockmup

[saiga12conversions.com 13]

 

So, let me get this straight. You don't currently have an FFL (yet), but are advertising FFL services and quotes to forum members, and bouncing off JT Engineering to establish your price structure.

This may seem like a dumb question, but before you qualify for a business membership, don't you need an actual FFL and a business license, before you begin to solicit business here?

 

 

 

- What is the issue with me joining the forum before the builds start?

 Have you ever even done any builds ?  I ask because your posts ( all of them) make it sound like you haven't. Generally someone who is offering a service doesn't ask the question's or make the comments you're making.

 

 

 

OK...this is stupid.

 

I was referring to the fact that I cannot build for profit before the FFL is issued...I was not saying that I had never done a build before.  Was that REALLY that confusing?

 

If you would like to see what my work looks like, take a look at the photos on my website: saiga12conversions.com.

 

I think that you have mistaken my politeness for ignorance.  Many members have posted their opinions and suggestions in this thread.  I have and been very careful to treat everyone's input with respect...and even bitten my tongue a few times when my business plan was "bashed" a little...because I feel like they are genuinely trying to help me be successful.  Just because I am an-open minded gentleman, does not mean that I don't know what I am doing.  And just because I am not going to be welding parts, does not mean that the conversion is "unprofessional".  There is a chance that I will take some of the member's suggestions and weld in the future, but for now I am going to stick with my original business plan and see what the response from customers is.

 

If you are looking for a gunsmith who is an arrogant know-it-all...I am not your guy.  I am not saying that any of the other business members are either...but it appears from your post that my politeness has ruined my credibility with you for some stupid reason.

 

If you want a humble and polite gunsmith who will turn your Saiga 12 into something awesome...in about 2 weeks...give me a shout.

 

That is the reason that I am offering the free conversion.  Because I am confident that the customer review will satisfy the skeptics.

Edited April 7, 2014 by saiga12conversions.com

[EthanM 514]

 

 

 

So, let me get this straight. You don't currently have an FFL (yet), but are advertising FFL services and quotes to forum members, and bouncing off JT Engineering to establish your price structure.

This may seem like a dumb question, but before you qualify for a business membership, don't you need an actual FFL and a business license, before you begin to solicit business here?

Goodness gracious man...

 

- If you took the time to read the thread you would know that Gunfan was the one doing comparisons with JTE (he has a very high opinion of JTE). I actually asked him to AVOID making such comparisons...because I don't want any chance of animosity between the business members.

 

It is my impression that the business members here try to help each other...not tear each other down.

 

- AND....when Gunfan (not me...Gunfan) compared our price structures...I stated that our price structures, and the conversion package that we offer, is DIFFERENT, and SHOULDN'T be compared. Where did you get the impression that I am "bouncing off" of JTE for anything? I have done nothing but praise the work of the other business members, and I do not appreciate you accusing me otherwise. Why try to poison the well?

 

- There is no question of IF I will get an FFL but WHEN. The ATF field agent has already visited my place of business and approved the location. Did you notice in my reply that I previously owned a GUN store. These people know who I am, and have delt with me in the past.

 

- What is the issue with me joining the forum before the builds start? Have you never seen a "Coming soon" banner in front of a store?

 

- I believe that there are a number of business members here who are not FFL holders. It is not a "requirement".

 

 

And to think....I'M A LIBERTARIAN TOO! LOL

 

So, let me get this straight. You don't currently have an FFL (yet), but are advertising FFL services and quotes to forum members, and bouncing off JT Engineering to establish your price structure.

This may seem like a dumb question, but before you qualify for a business membership, don't you need an actual FFL and a business license, before you begin to solicit business here?

 

 

- What is the issue with me joining the forum before the builds start?

Have you ever even done any builds ? I ask because your posts ( all of them) make it sound like you haven't. Generally someone who is offering a service doesn't ask the question's or make the comments you're making.

I would consider joining and gathering information before starting a sensible plan. Better to make you builds right at the get go than to try and overcome a bad rap over a couple bad builds. Edited April 6, 2014 by Ethan

[saiga12conversions.com 13]

 

 

 

So, let me get this straight. You don't currently have an FFL (yet), but are advertising FFL services and quotes to forum members, and bouncing off JT Engineering to establish your price structure.

 

This may seem like a dumb question, but before you qualify for a business membership, don't you need an actual FFL and a business license, before you begin to solicit business here?

 

 

 

- What is the issue with me joining the forum before the builds start? 

 

 

 

 

 

 Have you ever even done any builds ?  I ask because your posts ( all of them) make it sound like you haven't. Generally someone who is offering a service doesn't ask the question's or make the comments you're making.

 

 

OK...this is stupid.

 

I was referring to the fact that I cannot build for profit before the FFL is issued...I was not saying that I had never done a build before.  Was that REALLY that confusing?

 

If you would like to see what my work looks like, take a look at the photos on my website: saiga12conversions.com.

 

I think that you have mistaken my politeness for ignorance.  Many members have posted their opinions and suggestions in this thread.  I have and been very careful to treat everyone's input with respect...and even bitten my tongue a few times when my business plan was "bashed" a little...because I feel like they are genuinely trying to help me be successful.  Just because I am an-open minded gentleman, does not mean that I don't know what I am doing.  And just because I am not going to be welding parts, does not mean that the conversion is "unprofessional".  There is a chance that I will take some of the member's suggestions and weld in the future, but for now I am going to stick with my original business plan and see what the response from customers is.

 

If you are looking for a gunsmith who is an arrogant know-it-all...I am not your guy.  I am not saying that any of the other business members are either...but it appears from your post that my politeness has ruined my credibility with you for some stupid reason.

 

If you want a humble and polite gunsmith who will turn your Saiga 12 into something awesome...in about 2 weeks...give me a shout.

 

That is the reason that I am offering the free conversion.  Because I am confident that the customer review will satisfy the skeptics.

[saiga12conversions.com 13]

 

 

I would consider joining and gathering information before starting a sensible plan. Better to make you builds right at the get go than to try and overcome a bad rap over a couple bad builds.

 

 

There will be absolutely NO bad builds.

 

If I didn't have confidence in my work, I would not be going to the expense of setting this business up  

 

I should have the free conversion in the hands of at least one member in a few weeks.

 

Hopefully their kind review will put an end to all this silly skepticism

[rockmup 12]

 

 

So, let me get this straight. You don't currently have an FFL (yet), but are advertising FFL services and quotes to forum members, and bouncing off JT Engineering to establish your price structure.

This may seem like a dumb question, but before you qualify for a business membership, don't you need an actual FFL and a business license, before you begin to solicit business here?

 

 

 

- What is the issue with me joining the forum before the builds start?

 Have you ever even done any builds ?  I ask because your posts ( all of them) make it sound like you haven't. Generally someone who is offering a service doesn't ask the question's or make the comments you're making.

 

 

 

OK...this is stupid.

 

I was referring to the fact that I cannot build for profit before the FFL is issued...I was not saying that I had never done a build before.  Was that REALLY that confusing?

 

If you would like to see what my work looks like, take a look at the photos on my website: saiga12conversions.com.

 

I think that you have mistaken my politeness for ignorance.  Many members have posted their opinions and suggestions in this thread.  I have and been very careful to treat everyone's input with respect...and even bitten my tongue a few times when my business plan was "bashed" a little...because I feel like they are genuinely trying to help me be successful.  Just because I am an-open minded gentleman, does not mean that I don't know what I am doing.  And just because I am not going to be welding parts, does not mean that the conversion is "unprofessional".  There is a chance that I will take some of the member's suggestions and weld in the future, but for now I am going to stick with my original business plan and see what the response from customers is.

 

If you are looking for a gunsmith who is an arrogant know-it-all...I am not your guy.  I am not saying that any of the other business members are either...but it appears from your post that my politeness has ruined my credibility with you for some stupid reason.

 

If you want a humble and polite gunsmith who will turn your Saiga 12 into something awesome...in about 2 weeks...give me a shout.

 

That is the reason that I am offering the free conversion.  Because I am confident that the customer review will satisfy the skeptics.

 

  Sensitive huh ?

 

 Your questions and your eagerness to latch on to every idea put out by others reads like you don't have a business plan of your own.  It was a simple observation and a fair question. 

[Spacehog 2,218]

FWIW, here is my read on the whole situation. This guy is starting a business, which is not an easy undertaking, and takes a lot of balls. He has a business model, that is basic conversion builds that many have posted on the forum they are too intimidated to do by themselves. He announces this plan, and many of us that are beyond basic conversions, start throwing add-ons (you should do this, or this, or this to be truly successful) He takes the constructive criticism (suggestions) and thinks about incorporating into his plan. At what point is it no longer his business plan and ours? Who is laying out the capital investment here, us or him? Cut him some slack and let his work and customer service dictate whether he is successful or not. Whether I agree with his model or not, it is his money on the line. I think we should step back and let his work be the deciding factor. Many have made the decision before his business ever gets off the ground.

[lelandeod 179]

FWIW, here is my read on the whole situation. This guy is starting a business, which is not an easy undertaking, and takes a lot of balls. He has a business model, that is basic conversion builds that many have posted on the forum they are too intimidated to do by themselves. He announces this plan, and many of us that are beyond basic conversions, start throwing add-ons (you should do this, or this, or this to be truly successful) He takes the constructive criticism (suggestions) and thinks about incorporating into his plan. At what point is it no longer his business plan and ours? Who is laying out the capital investment here, us or him? Cut him some slack and let his work and customer service dictate whether he is successful or not. Whether I agree with his model or not, it is his money on the line. I think we should step back and let his work be the deciding factor. Many have made the decision before his business ever gets off the ground.

Agreed.

 

The only thing I'll add to this discussion is to just do your research on what's being imported right now and what's likely to be imported in the foreseeable future.  There are some indications that the unconverted Saigas are not going to be around, en masse, much longer.  But who knows how many unconverted shotguns are floating around out there...

 

Good luck with your business!