ryancreek 2 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) Long story short, I did a Dinzag conversion of my Saiga 7.62x39 and used the Tapco G2 FCG (I know, the G2 sucks and I have since learned it is not recommended for conversions). Of course, now this thing is having a serious hammer follow issue. Here's what I have tried so far to remedy it: 1) Following instructions from others who have had the same problem, I re-shaped the Tapco hammer with a file so that it mates better with the disconnector - NO DIFFERENCE. 2) Replaced the Tapco hammer with the original Saiga factory hammer (I purposely built it to be 922r over-complaint, so I am still good when I do this). This also made NO DIFFERENCE. So what are my options now?!? Is there anything I can do short of purchasing a whole new FCG (such as Red Star)? I just want to get this thing tuned up without any problems before I sell it to help me with grad school. Edited March 27, 2014 by rcc1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Did you remove material from the side of the axis to allow for the bolt hold open? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryancreek 2 Posted March 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) Did you remove material from the side of the axis to allow for the bolt hold open? I did the conversion years ago so I forget much of the process, but it does still have the bolt hold open. I do remember filing the actual lever a bit so that it does not get in the way of my trigger finger. Edited March 27, 2014 by rcc1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spacehog 2,219 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 OK, let's step back a bit. The G2 does not suck and thousands of successful conversions have been made with that trigger group. You have replaced the hammer with the original, so that eliminates, and bolt hold open tolerance issues. Can you post pics of the FCG so that we can see what is going on? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Yea, I'm not clear on the exact issue your experiencing. Maybe some pictures will help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spacehog 2,219 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Also please define "hammer follow issue". Not sure what you are describing here. Are you meaning the trigger is not resetting? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Pics would be great. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunman1 1,753 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 SS 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryancreek 2 Posted March 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) I have heard "hammer follow" described a couple different ways. Yes the trigger does not always reset, but that is only part of the problem. In some instances, mostly when the trigger is pulled slowly, double-firing is occuring. After the first round is fired, the disconnector does not properly catch the hammer on its way back, resulting in the hammer following forward and firing another round. I have since found the following that describes my issue exactly: 1) From Tapco: "*Note: INTRAFUSE G2 Trigger Groups are not compatible with the Saiga platform. INTRAFUSE G2 Trigger Groups are also not compatible with NoDak Spud NDS-3 and NDS-65 "economy" receivers. In some cases, the use of these two products together can create accidental double firing of the firearm." 2) This: http://www.nodakspud.com/troubleshooting.htm 3) Within this forum in a previous post: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/85186-tapco-g2-fcg-is-not-intended-for-the-saiga-platform/ Looks like I am just one of those unfortunate people having issues with the mass-produced die-cut G2's. I think I am going to ditch it all together and try a RedStar adjustable FCG. Edited March 27, 2014 by rcc1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WardenWolf 6 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) Dinzag at one time offered Arsenal trigger groups modified for the Saiga with BHO. If he still has them in stock, I believe he will modify one for you for around $10 over the cost of the part. The problem I ran into with the G2 is that it's too easy to bumpfire. Depending on setup, a condition can be created where simply performing a slow target pull will result in the rifle doubling. I have a long bipod that allows me to shoot while sitting on my rump. I also put a Romanian PSL-style stock on my Saiga .223. When combined, the rifle will unintentionally bumpfire when the bipod legs are fully extended. Edited March 27, 2014 by WardenWolf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Buy an arsenal trigger and disconnector and run the factory hammer. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryancreek 2 Posted March 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) Buy an arsenal trigger and disconnector and run the factory hammer. I e-mailed Dinzag about the arsenal trigger/disconnector. I don't see any of them for sale at his site though. I just found out that the Red Star FCG won't just drop in without modification. Just incase I do go that route, does anybody know what exactly I would have to do to mod and install the Red Star FCG? I'm an amateur and would require step by step instructions. Edited March 27, 2014 by rcc1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryancreek 2 Posted March 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 No response from Dinzag yet. Can't find any American made, Saiga ready FCG's other than G2s. Still hoping to get this trigger/disconnector problem fixed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunman1 1,753 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I have three Saiga conversions with the Tapco G2 FCG which I purchased from Dinzag, I have never had one single problem with any of them. I would also like to say that Brian has never left me hanging, he has always been quick to answer e-mails. I really do believe that this is the first negative "feedback" that I have ever seen about Dinzag....strange. I just wonder how many other folks are having these "PROBLEMS". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spacehog 2,219 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 From what I am reading after doing a web search on the issue, it would appear that many people are having the same issue of doubling with the Redstar FCG as well. You might want to shoot Mancat a PM and see what modification he made to resolve the issue. In his original post, he linked a website that showed the modification, but the link is no longer working. One last thought is to use a washer underneath the rear trigger legs to reduce over travel. I have read about issues with longer travel causing issues with the disconnector catching, especially during slow fire. If your problem is related to travel, this modification should fix it. GunFun has a post of the process here: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/76775-sweetest-trigger-for-saiga-conversions/&do=findComment&comment=816710 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rentprop1 0 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) you could always put a suplus trigger group in there ......just to see if it works...then take it back out Edited March 30, 2014 by rentprop1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deadeye 325 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) Try welding a trigger on the factory fcg Edited March 30, 2014 by deadeye Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) From what I am reading after doing a web search on the issue, it would appear that many people are having the same issue of doubling with the Redstar FCG as well. You might want to shoot Mancat a PM and see what modification he made to resolve the issue. In his original post, he linked a website that showed the modification, but the link is no longer working. Arizona Response Systems, where the link previously went to, appears to have taken down all their useful info regarding tuning the AK FCG, because they're now selling "AK Armorer" tutorial series on DVD From memory, the page basically described some modifications that could be made to an AK FCG to get better/earlier disconnector engagement. Basically he advised doing a small amount of filing on the disconnector engagement surfaces of the hammer "ears", so that the hammer would engage the disconnector as soon as possible, thus eliminating the "dead spot" that seems to exist on some FCGs. That dead spot seems to be where some people have problems with the G2. If pulling the trigger just right, the hammer can potentially slip past both the trigger hook and disconnector hook. I think it may actually be also possible to modify the bottom travel stop surface of the G2 disconnector, so that it tips forward slightly more, thereby possibly eliminating this potential dead spot gap, though this is a modification I haven't experimented with. There ARE a handful of people who have claimed to have received faulty G2 disconnectors that needed to be replaced. I'm not talking about the ones with the incorrect spring cavity drilled - some people have stated that the disconnector hook was just plain wrong, and that replacing it solved their issues. I believe you can use the original Saiga disconnector, if you still have it. There are several other things to avoid: - If using an extra-power recoil spring, remove it. It can cause the carrier to short-stroke, preventing the disconnector from engaging the hammer. I believe that this was the problem that I was actually having with m S223, as after eliminating the XP spring, I no longer have had ANY issues with doubling. edit: just went out and shot another 120rd of various steel & brass with the .223 today. That is probably about 500rds since dumping the XP spring, and still no doubling. Still running the original G2 group I converted with, probably several thousand rounds ago - though from time to time I have run a Bulgarian hammer in it as it cycles smoother, but at the time I was trying to run a matched FCG to eliminate any variables - If using a recoil buffer, throw it away. It can cause the same exact problems as the XP spring. Recoil buffers are generally not recommended in the AK design because of this very issue. The easiest way to "fix" the G2? Just don't baby the trigger. Edited March 30, 2014 by mancat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryancreek 2 Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) I have three Saiga conversions with the Tapco G2 FCG which I purchased from Dinzag, I have never had one single problem with any of them. I would also like to say that Brian has never left me hanging, he has always been quick to answer e-mails. I really do believe that this is the first negative "feedback" that I have ever seen about Dinzag....strange. I just wonder how many other folks are having these "PROBLEMS". It's not a problem with Dinzag at all, it's the Tapco G2. Please see one of the previous posts in this thread as you will see the links to others who have had the same issues. I know it works well for the vast majority of conversions, but Tapco now says not to put them in Saigas. From what I am reading after doing a web search on the issue, it would appear that many people are having the same issue of doubling with the Redstar FCG as well. You might want to shoot Mancat a PM and see what modification he made to resolve the issue. In his original post, he linked a website that showed the modification, but the link is no longer working. One last thought is to use a washer underneath the rear trigger legs to reduce over travel. I have read about issues with longer travel causing issues with the disconnector catching, especially during slow fire. If your problem is related to travel, this modification should fix it. GunFun has a post of the process here: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/76775-sweetest-trigger-for-saiga-conversions/&do=findComment&comment=816710 Thanks spacehog, I'll look into that. Very helpful advice. Edited March 31, 2014 by rcc1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Tapco doesn't say not to put them in Saigas. Tapco states that the G2 isn't compatible with the Saiga as-is, out of the box. Once you convert the Saiga, the G2 is perfectly fine. Note that the G2's occasional issues are reported with all different kinds of AKs. The only AK receiver I know of that specifically has issues with the G2 is the NDS-3, and NDS explains exactly why. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunman1 1,753 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Tapco doesn't say not to put them in Saigas. Tapco states that the G2 isn't compatible with the Saiga as-is, out of the box. Once you convert the Saiga, the G2 is perfectly fine. Note that the G2's occasional issues are reported with all different kinds of AKs. The only AK receiver I know of that specifically has issues with the G2 is the NDS-3, and NDS explains exactly why. Thank you for the fine clarification sir Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryancreek 2 Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) Let me ask everyone these questions: In your opinion, should I sell the gun as-is with the double-firing FCG when the trigger is babied, or go through the trouble of setting up different FCG in it? Has anyone faced legal trouble from unintentional double-fire? Every other semi-automatic firearm I have ever owned never had this problem. This is probably my favorite firearm, but the lack of FCG options is frustrating, especially with 922r restrictions. Edited March 31, 2014 by rcc1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spacehog 2,219 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I would not sell it if it were doubling, particularly after posting this thread that will be preserved forever testifying that you were aware of the problem. With that said I also wouldn't have an issue buying a gun that was doubling if the price was good. The issue that you have described points directly to the disconnector improperly engaging the hammer when the carrier is moving rearward. Unless you are short stroking as Mancat described, it is likely an out of spec hammer or disconnector. You have aleady replaced the hammer, so that points to the disconnector or spring. Personally, I would try a different G2. Or alternately if you have a buddy with an AK with the G2 swap it out with his to see if it fixes the problem. I wouldn't give up on it that easily. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Buy an arsenal trigger and disconnector and run the factory hammer. I e-mailed Dinzag about the arsenal trigger/disconnector. I don't see any of them for sale at his site though. I just found out that the Red Star FCG won't just drop in without modification. Just incase I do go that route, does anybody know what exactly I would have to do to mod and install the Red Star FCG? I'm an amateur and would require step by step instructions. Check KVar. They should have them. And I wouldn't sell the rifle over something this minor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunman1 1,753 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I'll buy that broken piece -O- shit, $50...send it to me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 There was an issue a long time ago with some G2 disconnector spring pockets being the wrong depth. This may or may not be the problem, but I will bet that the problem is with the disconnector, and especially the spring. Many times the spring gets left out when converting- is yours there? Is it good condition-no kinks? Is it strong enough to catch AND hold the disconnector? Is the disconnector hook resting on the heel and not the toe when it catches? Is the engagement POSITIVE? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Inebriated 31 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 I'll buy that broken piece -O- shit, $50...send it to me *raises hand* $60. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
semper299 284 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 I have three Saiga conversions with the Tapco G2 FCG which I purchased from Dinzag, I have never had one single problem with any of them. I would also like to say that Brian has never left me hanging, he has always been quick to answer e-mails. I really do believe that this is the first negative "feedback" that I have ever seen about Dinzag....strange. I just wonder how many other folks are having these "PROBLEMS". This ^^^^^ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryancreek 2 Posted April 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2014 (edited) ... it is likely an out of spec hammer or disconnector. You have aleady replaced the hammer, so that points to the disconnector or spring. Personally, I would try a different G2. Or alternately if you have a buddy with an AK with the G2 swap it out with his to see if it fixes the problem. I wouldn't give up on it that easily. I am ordering a new G2 FCG today. Maybe I will try a double hook (?). The G2 currently installed is a single hook, and was purchased around 2007-2008. I did check and the disconnector spring IS at the correct depth, not too deep at all. Maybe this next G2 will do the trick. Since so many people have success with the G2 I am wondering if somehow I got one slightly out of spec, like Spacehog said. If that still doesn't work, I am going to put a rounded groove in a tapco trigger with a dremel so that it can be used with the factory disconnector. One of these combos is sure to fix the issue I think. Edited April 7, 2014 by rcc1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chevyman097 2,579 Posted April 7, 2014 Report Share Posted April 7, 2014 (edited) Do not order the double hook. It is not compatible with the saiga. Further more I would bet the disconnector is the issue as said before. Check the spring and the depth if the pocket it sets it. Try posting pictures if you don't know what to look for. No offense intended but if you don't know the difference in the single and double hook trigger or why it is or isn't compatible my bet is in user error as the main problem. As said before pictures do wonders in getting help. Some times its best without vague explanations. Edited. Sorry for typo maybe will make sense now. Posting from phone and this these tiny keys drive me nuts. Edited April 7, 2014 by Chevyman097 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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