Help! Hammer Follow Issue

[ryancreek 2]

Do not order the double hook. It is not compatible with the saiga.

 

Further more I would bet the disconnector is the issue as said before. Check the spring and the depth if the pocket it sets it. Try posting pictures if you don't know what to look for.

 

No offense intended but if you don't know the difference in the single and double hook trigger or why it is or isn't compatible my bet is in user error as the main problem. As said before pictures do wonders in getting help. Some times its best without vague explanations.

 

Edited. Sorry for typo maybe will make sense now. Posting from phone and this these tiny keys drive me nuts.

 

The double hooks are compatible if you put a second small notch in the reciever. The spring depth on the disconnector is also correct. I'm just trying another FCG set.

Edited April 7, 2014 by rcc1

[chevyman097 2,579]

There is no reason to cut your reciever when they make a part appropriate for it already. But to each his own.

[Spacehog 2,218]

I tend to agree with Chevy. The double hook trigger is not going to solve a disconnector issue, because regardless of the number of hook sears holding the hammer back, they both use a single hook rear disconnector. I believe the issue you are having while slowly pulling the trigger is you are hitting a sweet spot where the sear releases the hammer, and the disconnector ear is not engaging before a double occurs. Below are two pics of my single hook G2 set up in my Saiga. The first pic is with the hammer held back by the single hook. Note the amount of engagement the hook (sear) has on the hammer. The next pic is with the hammer held down and pulling and holding the trigger in fire position. Note that the single hook no longer engages the trigger, but the rear disconnector does. Note the amount of engagement the disconnector has on the hammer in this position.

 

 

One easy way to test the disconnector is to hold the hammer down and pull the trigger until the disconnector catches the hammer. (The second photo). Now slowly release the trigger. The hammer should move slightly forward and be caught by the single hook sear without releasing the hammer fully. I.e striking the firing pin. If it does fully release the hammer, then the disconnector and/or spring is the root of your doubling problem. It is important to do this test several times. As it may take a couple of tries to reveal the problem.

 

Hopefully the pics will give you a picture of the correct engagements for the sear and disconnector as well.

[ryancreek 2]

... One easy way to test the disconnector is to hold the hammer down and pull the trigger until the disconnector catches the hammer. (The second photo). Now slowly release the trigger. The hammer should move slightly forward and be caught by the single hook sear without releasing the hammer fully. I.e striking the firing pin. If it does fully release the hammer, then the disconnector and/or spring is the root of your doubling problem. It is important to do this test several times. ...

 

Holy shit spacehog you have solved it! After comparing your pictures to mine, it is easy to see that my G2 disconnector is not engaging the hammer in the same manner. It looks as if mine is just barely catching it.

 

I did what you said as well, and when I slowly release the trigger, the hammer is NOT caught by the single hook, and strikes the firing pin. In fact, I can recreate this malfunction just about every time. Thank you much! (Note: factory Saiga hammer is installed in this pic, but the G2 hammer fit the same way. My BHO lever is also not currently installed, but I intend to use it).

 

 

I am definitely getting a new FCG. I could try another Tapco G2, but there are also lots of K-Var options http://www.k-var.com/shop/search.php?mode=search&page=2

Edited April 7, 2014 by rcc1

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Since nobody else has said it, has any work been done to the bottom of the bolt carrier by anyone? Does it still have the factory black paint there or has it been "polished"? Some people get carried away trying to re-profile & polish their hammers and bolt carriers, resulting in negative disco engagement.

Posting at the same time.... If you can't hold the trigger all the way back and keep it there while pulling and releasing the bolt, with the disco capturing the hammer like in spacehog's pic, then you either have a hammer / bolt carrier thickness issue, or bad (or no) spring in the disconnect, or it's one of those recalled discos with the deeper spring socket.

Alright I looked at your pic. The hammer IS getting captured so it can easily be fixed by taking a little off the bottom of the foot on the front of the disconnect. (That is if all it will go forward is that far... if you push down on the hammer now does it catch more of it??)

 

 Edit again... are you sure the trigger is not binding on the receiver any when pulled?

[ryancreek 2]

Since nobody else has said it, has any work been done to the bottom of the bolt carrier by anyone? Does it still have the factory black paint there or has it been "polished"? Some people get carried away trying to re-profile & polish their hammers and bolt carriers, resulting in negative disco engagement.

Posting at the same time.... If you can't hold the trigger all the way back and keep it there while pulling and releasing the bolt, with the disco capturing the hammer like in spacehog's pic, then you either have a hammer / bolt carrier thickness issue, or bad (or no) spring in the disconnect, or it's one of those recalled discos with the deeper spring socket.

Alright I looked at your pic. The hammer IS getting captured so it can easily be fixed by taking a little off the bottom of the foot on the front of the disconnect. (That is if all it will go forward is that far... if you push down on the hammer now does it catch more of it??)

 

 Edit again... are you sure the trigger is not binding on the receiver any when pulled?

 

All I did was take a factory Saiga that I purchased new off the shelf, bought the conversion parts from Dinzag Arms, and followed the instructions found here and here. I was very meticulous. No other work has been done to it.

 

If I push down the hammer, it won't capture any more of it. That's all I can get the disconnector to capture. Could you explain a little more what you mean by taking a bit off the bottom foot of the disconnector?

 

Trigger and the single hook part are moving smoothly in the receiver.

Edited April 8, 2014 by rcc1

[Spacehog 2,218]

What Cobra is asking is.. If you if put the FCG in the same position you took the picture of, and while still holding the trigger in fire position, and you push down on the hammer with your finger, does the disconnector hook capture or engage more of the hammer? Or does it still just capture the lip with the pressure of the hammer relieved? If it engages more of the hammer, you can modify the disconnector foot to capture more of the hammer. If not then, I would replace the disconnector and spring. The test that you did to recreate the problem, should be done as a basic safety function for any FCG that you go with. If it doesn't pass that test, it is unsafe and will likely lead to doubling. Glad that post helped you.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Spacehog

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

 

Since nobody else has said it, has any work been done to the bottom of the bolt carrier by anyone? Does it still have the factory black paint there or has it been "polished"? Some people get carried away trying to re-profile & polish their hammers and bolt carriers, resulting in negative disco engagement.

Posting at the same time.... If you can't hold the trigger all the way back and keep it there while pulling and releasing the bolt, with the disco capturing the hammer like in spacehog's pic, then you either have a hammer / bolt carrier thickness issue, or bad (or no) spring in the disconnect, or it's one of those recalled discos with the deeper spring socket.

Alright I looked at your pic. The hammer IS getting captured so it can easily be fixed by taking a little off the bottom of the foot on the front of the disconnect. (That is if all it will go forward is that far... if you push down on the hammer now does it catch more of it??)

 

 Edit again... are you sure the trigger is not binding on the receiver any when pulled?

 

All I did was take a factory Saiga that I purchased new off the shelf, bought the conversion parts from Dinzag Arms, and followed the instructions found here and here. I was very meticulous. No other work has been done to it.

 

If I push down the hammer, it won't capture any more of it. That's all I can get the disconnector to capture. Could you explain a little more what you mean by taking a bit off the bottom foot of the disconnector?

 

Trigger and the single hook part are moving smoothly in the receiver.

 

 Then the disconnect is simply not moving forward far enough. That is odd but not anything Brian did to cause it. It can however easily be fixed by doing what I said above.... taking a file and removing just a small bit from the bottom of the front end of that disconnect (the foot, or pointed end in front of the axle). If it is still sprung firmly and not floppy (which would indicate a loose spring engagement) then it simply needs a little more forward rotation on the axis. The important thing though is to be sure that the hammer is being pushed down far enough to go PAST where the disco catches it when the trigger is held, and not just barely far enough to let it grab. You test this by looking down in the receiver from the rear with dust cover off, cycling the action with trigger held firmly back all the way, then keeping it there after hammer is captured while you move the carrier back and forth over the hammer, watching it move up and down. Watch how far it does move downward from the point it's already captured by the disconnnect. That is your critical hammer / carrier thickness. You perform this test with recoil spring removed.

 

 Edit to add ... This is the same test I perform on every FCG and BCG I re-profile and polish to make damn sure it does not go out of here in a dangerous slamfire state. It is also why I prefer to only work on bolt carriers and hammers that go in the same gun, at the same time.

[Spacehog 2,218]

Shannon is a far greater expert on FCG's than I am, so I will defer to his experience and let him guide you from here. One last thing I would add is determine whether your disconnector spring is shot. The sloppiness or lack of spring engagement can be seen by allowing your hammer to move fully forward (resting against the firing pin) and pushing down and back on the disconnector hook. There should be constant fluid pressure when pushing on it and releasing it to its at rest position. If there is any slop or play, then the spring or spring pocket is the culprit.

 

And Shannon I have a FCG and bolt carrier group coming your way soon brother.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

We are ready and waiting any ol time my friend. Just send either Sandi (Racegal20) or me a PM and we will be quick to respond.

 

Looks to me like we were both saying pretty much the same thing here.

[ryancreek 2]

What Cobra is asking is.. If you if put the FCG in the same position you took the picture of, and while still holding the trigger in fire position, and you push down on the hammer with your finger, does the disconnector hook capture or engage more of the hammer? Or does it still just capture the lip with the pressure of the hammer relieved? ...

 

I put it in the same position, held the trigger back, and pushed down the hammer further. The disconnector does not engage more of the hammer, still only the lip.

 

Thanks for your description and thanks to Cobra's Custom LLC as well for the advice. I will follow-up with a post and pictures once I get it working correctly.

Edited April 8, 2014 by rcc1

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Is there sufficient spring pressure on the disconnect when you push against it with your thumb? I mean does it feel spongy or weak at all? I still wonder if it could also be your trigger not coming back quite far enough / therefore the disconnect not swiveling far enough forward on the trigger axis? It would be easy to tell in person, but from what I can see in the photo (it may just be the angle and photo / spacial distortion) it appears your trigger sear is just barely clearing the hammer after it gets released. When I tune my triggers with the custom over travel limiter that is what I am aiming for, but the factory unmodified version G-2 without OTL should keep going farther forward some. So if yours is stopping just after releasing the hammer what I'm saying is the disco hasn't yet full engaged as it is supposed to, being attached to the trigger....

 

 Hold the hammer down with your thumb after you have released it from the disco to the trigger sear. Now pull the trigger and watch how far forward the 'hook" travels past the point where it comes off the hammer.

[Spacehog 2,218]

OK. I said I was referring to Shannon, but he has a very good point here that I want to reinforce. If you look at the picture of my FCG with the disconnector engaging the hammer. Compare it to your picture doing the same. Now look at the gap between the sear (Front hook) and the front of the hammer. You will notice that your gap is noticeably smaller. This is an indication that your trigger group is not moving as far forward as mine. How far the trigger group moves forward also affects the disconnector engagement on the backside of the trigger group. Assuming spring tension is good, the trigger group not moving far enough forward when you pull the trigger, would also affect whether your disconnector moves far enough forward to engage the hammer enough.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

What he said  ^^ 

 

 If that is actually the case all you have to do is file a little off the front legs of the trigger carriage where it bottoms out on the receiver. If for any reason it is NOT bottoming out on the floor of the receiver that is your real problem.

 

 These damn things ain't rocket science. Just about any problem with em can be adjusted and eliminated by adding or removing material in the right places. I must say though that anyone claiming the G-2 is a junk trigger group... uhhh no. They are the best one out there for the AK in MY opinion. I can make one do anything I want including a set trigger with just 2 pounds or less release. I love em. No BS set screws or anything to deal with... and they are made of hard enough steel to actually LAST... unlike a few others out there (including the factory Russian group...).

 

 

[Spacehog 2,218]

What he said ^^

That is one hell of a compliment coming from you!

Edited April 8, 2014 by Spacehog

[mancat 2,368]

 

... One easy way to test the disconnector is to hold the hammer down and pull the trigger until the disconnector catches the hammer. (The second photo). Now slowly release the trigger. The hammer should move slightly forward and be caught by the single hook sear without releasing the hammer fully. I.e striking the firing pin. If it does fully release the hammer, then the disconnector and/or spring is the root of your doubling problem. It is important to do this test several times. ...

 

Holy shit spacehog you have solved it! After comparing your pictures to mine, it is easy to see that my G2 disconnector is not engaging the hammer in the same manner. It looks as if mine is just barely catching it.

 

I did what you said as well, and when I slowly release the trigger, the hammer is NOT caught by the single hook, and strikes the firing pin. In fact, I can recreate this malfunction just about every time. Thank you much! (Note: factory Saiga hammer is installed in this pic, but the G2 hammer fit the same way. My BHO lever is also not currently installed, but I intend to use it).

 

 

I am definitely getting a new FCG. I could try another Tapco G2, but there are also lots of K-Var options http://www.k-var.com/shop/search.php?mode=search&page=2

 

 

Reinstall the Tapco G2 hammer. If the engagement is the same, either your disconnector is excessively worn (e.g. poor heat-treating process) or was improperly cast.

 

This disconnector engagement is absolutely piss poor.

Edited April 8, 2014 by mancat

[chevyman097 2,579]

So...go ahead. Tell me. Do you think the best option is still to cut another notch in your receiver that is irreversible?

 

Don't be so hasty and we will find you a solution.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Chevyman097

[ryancreek 2]

Mancat, I re-installed the Tapco hammer to take a closer look. The engagement is only slightly better, but nothing like the engagement seen in spacehog's pic. And it is still easy to release the trigger slowly and have it slip past the hook.

 

Going to try everyone's suggestions, and possibly different FCG parts. I do have a new bulgarian hammer and a k-var disconnector on the way. They were super cheap, so I figured those might be worth a shot when I get around to it this weekend.

Edited April 8, 2014 by rcc1

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Chevyman bro I luv ya for sure but why would anyone evr be interested in reversing perfection?    I myself love a dbl hook. I've put em in most of my conversions I loved the most...including my S-12 Blondie... just because. 

[Spacehog 2,218]

So...go ahead. Tell me. Do you think the best option is still to cut another notch in your receiver that is irreversible?

 

Don't be so hasty and we will find you a solution.

Cut him some slack Chevy ...we were both there at one point. I am still learning everytime I log onto this sight. Even Cobra's posts here got me thinking about the problem from different perspectives.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

You don't need to cut the receiver to use a double hook trigger.

Look for Gunfun's signature for a link to a "how to make an over travel limiter using a double hook trigger". Very easy to do.

[chevyman097 2,579]

 

So...go ahead. Tell me. Do you think the best option is still to cut another notch in your receiver that is irreversible?

 

Don't be so hasty and we will find you a solution.

Cut him some slack Chevy ...we were both there at one point. I am still learning everytime I log onto this sight. Even Cobra's posts here got me thinking about the problem from different perspectives.

 

Your right    Just dont be so hasty and we will find the problem always! there is nothing we cant fix muahah! ok well almost

[hdskumm 39]

Obvious question, but is the grip binding on the trigger at all?

[ryancreek 2]

I believe I have fixed it with a K-Var FCG! And it was still only around $30. The website says it is designed from the original AKM by Arsenal, so maybe I should be calling it an Arsenal FCG.

 

The K-Var disconnector grips much more of the hammer (still the factory Saiga hammer). I used the same disconnector spring that was in the Tapco G2 since this set did not come with a spring. However, when I do the test and slowly release the trigger, it is firmly caught by the hook/sear EVERYTIME, which should eliminate all the doubles I was getting. Unlike the G2, I simply can't find that magic spot where the hammer slips past the sear. Live fire test will follow.

 

 

I did have to dremel a little notch on the left side of the safety lever to get it to fit past the K-Var disconnector (why all that unneccesary material on the rear of it?). It also does not have the convenient sleeve that holds the disco & trigger together like the Tapco G2 for easy drop-in installation. Feels good though. It is a thinner, rounded trigger instead of the flat-face of the G2, but trigger pull is smooth and it feels natural enough in the contour of my index finger.

 

Here are the two compared. Tapco G2 on left, K-Var/Arsenal on right:

 

When I compare the two like this, the K-Var one looks like better manufacturing to me. The disco and hook are beefier, it has cleaner edges, and a nice oxide finish. As you can see, the gap and angle between the disco and hook are also quite different.

Edited April 13, 2014 by rcc1

[Spacehog 2,218]

If the sear is catching the hammer after releasing the disconnect, I believe you are good to go. Let us know once you get it out to the range.

[chevyman097 2,579]

Glad you seemed to have fix it. Let us know after a live fire test for sure.

 

The K var trigger probably will be a little more comfortable and more smooth feeling.

[mancat 2,368]

I wonder if your G2 was improperly cast somehow. The gap between the disconnector and trigger hook look huge on the G2, compared to the Arsenal FCG.

 

P.S. the Arsenal FCG is technically the correct type for the Saiga series - it is an AK-74 FCG. However the Saiga will work with either. The AK-74 FCG I believe is designed to require less hammer travel to properly reset, but I can only speculate as to why.

[ryancreek 2]

I wonder if your G2 was improperly cast somehow. The gap between the disconnector and trigger hook look huge on the G2, compared to the Arsenal FCG.

 

P.S. the Arsenal FCG is technically the correct type for the Saiga series - it is an AK-74 FCG. However the Saiga will work with either. The AK-74 FCG I believe is designed to require less hammer travel to properly reset, but I can only speculate as to why.

 

Makes sense. If this K-Var/Arsenal FCG that I have now installed is technically the correct type, and price is competitive, why does the G2 seem to be so heavily favored in Saiga conversions?

 

I think this FCG is the tits, and I wish I could have seen the two together before I went with the G2 initially. Of course, like I said it doesn't have a sleeve that keeps them together and I had to no put a tiny notch in my safety to fit, but those are the only downsides I see.

Edited April 13, 2014 by rcc1

[ryancreek 2]

Buy an arsenal trigger and disconnector and run the factory hammer.

 

Guess you were right all along!

[chevyman097 2,579]

 

 

I wonder if your G2 was improperly cast somehow. The gap between the disconnector and trigger hook look huge on the G2, compared to the Arsenal FCG.

 

P.S. the Arsenal FCG is technically the correct type for the Saiga series - it is an AK-74 FCG. However the Saiga will work with either. The AK-74 FCG I believe is designed to require less hammer travel to properly reset, but I can only speculate as to why.

Makes sense. If this K-Var/Arsenal FCG that I have now installed is technically the correct type, and price is competitive, why does the G2 seem to be so heavily favored in Saiga conversions?

 

I think this FCG is the tits, and I wish I could have seen the two together before I went with the G2 initially. Of course, like I said it doesn't have a sleeve that keeps them together and I had to no put a tiny notch in my safety to fit, but those are the only downsides I see.

I haven't priced parts myself lately but I believe it was once For the simple fact that the g2 trigger was cheaper for a quick affordable conversion. But as you said if the gap seems to be closing on the price differences then the kvar set may very well be the more common choice.