beefcakeb99 572 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 There's been several, supposedly jbi armory, the comments on the main link claim Leonard embody the orange muzzle tip guy and political"activist" made two, and the ar pistol kits to name a few. I'm so screwed with only 30 7N6 and 35 7T3 which won't be shot now. And a lot is two words Quote Link to post Share on other sites
varickm 10 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) Everyone should take a moment to read this. I think this the argument we need to focus on......http://www.lawandfreedom.com/site/firearms/GOA_Comments_ATF.pdf Some more info from William J. Olsen.......http://lawandfreedom.com/site/firearms/index.html "Today our firm filed comments with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives ("ATF") on behalf of Gun Owners of America, Inc. and Gun Owners Foundation pursuant to the ATF request for comments on the use of the “sporting purposes” exemption for “certain projectiles from regulation as ‘armor piercing’ ammunition.”These comments were filed because "GOA and GOF believe that ATF’s past interpretations of Section 921(a)(17) have been erroneous, and are contrary to the clear intent of Congress. Thus, ATF’s understanding of what constitutes AP ammunition should be revised."The comments expound upon the following points:ATF Would Add Its Own Language to the Statute, in an Effort to Further Restrict Armor Piercing Ammunition.ATF Has Misinterpreted the Language of Section 921(a)(17) in an Overly-Restrictive Manner.Many Typical Rifle Calibers Are Capable of Defeating the Soft Body Armor,Regardless of Whether They Are Armor Piercing." I think this is who can help - William J. Olsen and/or Gun Owners of America, Inc. and Gun Owners Foundation Edited March 30, 2014 by varickm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryr8828 7 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 5.45 ak pistols have been around for a few years, I almost bought one in 2009. I remember it being out of Az. It had plastic furniture on it. Not as prevalent as the dracos but they've been around. 5.45 short barrelled uppers for ar's are for sale at Aim Surplus and other places. Robarms has a 5.45 ar style pistol for sale right on their website. So I'm not sure how this JBI Armory is drawing all the hate on this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 It's pretty much over. Usac posted they sold 1600 tins in the one to two days, we really need some wealthy entrepreneurs to tool up. I still have a little doubt in the back of my mind that this could be a huge April fools joke/hoax. But as more information releases my doubts are dwindling. B best bet is to fight the fuckers out of position. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
varickm 10 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) Everyone needs to support this. -http://www.lawandfreedom.com/site/firearms/GOA_Comments_ATF.pdf William J. Olsen and/or Gun Owners of America, Inc. and Gun Owners Foundation. It needs more exposure Edited March 30, 2014 by varickm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VR762Shooter 838 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) I picked up a can today although my 74 plans will be impacted still plan to make one and I would like to have some surplus for it although stores in the area are carrying silver bear its a bit higher per round comparatively ($-0.20 a round for can about $0,40 per round of bear) prices will likely only go higher Edited March 30, 2014 by VR6Shooter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
honkytonk 30 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I emailed the NRA and NAGR about it to see what, if any, plans they have to fight it. I think it is a losing battle though. I will do the same with my Senator and Congressman but I am not holding my breath. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jpanzer 1,265 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Till proven ABSOLUTELY wrong I will consider this another scam to drive up demand for 5.45x39 ammo. It did what was intended, I.E. it started a panic amongst the plebes and drove demand way out of proportion to what the market was showing previous to this scare. If I'm proven wrong so be it. 2 or 3 months down the road we will know for sure..... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
honkytonk 30 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Till proven ABSOLUTELY wrong I will consider this another scam to drive up demand for 5.45x39 ammo. It did what was intended, I.E. it started a panic amongst the plebes and drove demand way out of proportion to what the market was showing previous to this scare. If I'm proven wrong so be it. 2 or 3 months down the road we will know for sure..... I sure hope you are right! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 This shit pisses me off to no end. 7.62x25 was once cheap and easy to find-now not so much. .22LR was once cheap and easy to find-now not so much! The keep your guns, we're taking your ammo end run is slowly becoming a reality. If nothing else the pricks are making sure they drive the prices up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VR762Shooter 838 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 This is scary for the 74 crowd because of the speculative talk of a Russian import ban in general. Put the surplus ban on top of that and the caliber can take a pretty big hit. I bought just so I can be sure to have some in the future at a cheap price. Place I got mine today I already had gift-cards for and is the only place that hadn't been ransacked yet. Were still 6 cans left and I could have got more but 1 is just enough to help set for a stockpile once my 74 project begins. I wouldn't doubt if the manufacturers in other countries do the same they have done with 7.62 and just start making spam can new productions bulk without the AP evil steel core. Prices may not be as good as surplus but I'm sure they will stay around the other x39 pricing as long as the demand is enough for them to keep it coming Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jpanzer 1,265 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) 7N6 does NOT have what is considered a AP steel core. What it has is an UNHARDENED steel core covered by a lead jacket. 7N10 and 7N22 DO have hardened steel cores and are considered armor piercing rounds. Neither of these rounds are available on the civilian market.... Edited March 31, 2014 by Jpanzer 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 ...like the ATF would care. The same agency that has to enforce a law where one inch less off a 16" barrel lands you in prison. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) ...like the ATF would care. The same agency that has to enforce a law where one inch less off a 16" barrel lands you in prison. Hell, they'd prosecute you for a lot less than an inch. These are the people that potentially could prosecute everyone with a semi-auto and a shoestring, throw you in prison for 'Intent to Construct a Machine Gun' Edited March 31, 2014 by ChileRelleno 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
varickm 10 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 William J. Olsen's law firm representing Gun Owners of America, Inc. and Gun Owners Foundation...... They have already pinpointed the problem. ATF is using the statute, which is too vague, to push through their agenda. Congress never intended ATF to use this statute this way. The document from December 2012 explains this issue perfectly....http://www.lawandfreedom.com/site/firearms/GOA_Comments_ATF.pdf ATF has claimed an authority it does not possess. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) ATF has claimed an authority it does not possess. Do they have the right? No. Do they have the power? Yes. They only need the thinnest justification to ban. And technicalities are their lifeblood. Think about it. 16.0" is fine. 15.99" will get you thrown in federal prison. Is there anyone who genuinely believes this ISN'T a technicality? The first 5.45 pistol was probably made shortly after the first krink kits hit the US market. I'm surprised it took them this long to think of this infringement. Edited March 31, 2014 by Darth Saigus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Well, the BATF will be open tomorrow unless they get off on some union protected holiday that we hardly know about. Let's see if it's a big hoax and some asshole made this go viral or if they really did fuck up. If they did stop the importation of a round smaller than a .22 that does not meet AP specs, I think they would do more damage to their out of control department than good. Not a fucking thing confirmed yet. Just hack photos on sketchy letter heads and a phone call anybody could have made up and posted online. The most concerning thing is that two huge retailers either had some inside information on this and didn't share it sooner or they took the bait and fell for one hell of a hoax. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) If they did stop the importation of a round smaller than a .22 that does not meet AP specs, I think they would do more damage to their out of control department than good. How so? Who is going to sue them and face millions of dollars in expenses for an almost guaranteed defeat? NRA and GOA have tried it and generally lose. Their goal is to stop the people from becoming armed. I would think that any step toward making it harder on us regular folks would be a victory for them and their supporters (the moronic voters that got Mao 2 terms). Edited March 31, 2014 by Maxwelhse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 There are still some vendors that have it, though obviously much more expensive than it was. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 If they did stop the importation of a round smaller than a .22 that does not meet AP specs, I think they would do more damage to their out of control department than good. How so? Who is going to sue them and face millions of dollars in expenses for an almost guaranteed defeat? NRA and GOA have tried it and generally lose. Their goal is to stop the people from becoming armed. I would think that any step toward making it harder on us regular folks would be a victory for them and their supporters (the moronic voters that got Mao 2 terms). Thanks for your pessimism. A simple fucking google search will show you the history of the BATF getting sued for stupid shit. This would be an easy one. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I'm just gonna wait until they release actual documents proving a ban. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) If they did stop the importation of a round smaller than a .22 that does not meet AP specs, I think they would do more damage to their out of control department than good. How so? Who is going to sue them and face millions of dollars in expenses for an almost guaranteed defeat? NRA and GOA have tried it and generally lose. Their goal is to stop the people from becoming armed. I would think that any step toward making it harder on us regular folks would be a victory for them and their supporters (the moronic voters that got Mao 2 terms). Thanks for your pessimism. A simple fucking google search will show you the history of the BATF getting sued for stupid shit. This would be an easy one. Thanks for your blind optimism... Where were your simple fucking resource checks in 1984 and 1994? How many lawsuits did you file? I was 5 and 15 respectively so it's not like I let "us" down... I hope you blame yourself in the mirror every day with your snide attitude about what the BATFE can, or cannot, do. That's in spite of all sorts of meaningless lawsuits that generally get "us" nowhere. edit: Ok.... I meant what I said, but I can't see how drawing lines in the sand against each other will help anything. Truce? Edited March 31, 2014 by Maxwelhse 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Bullshit. Totally and completely off-topic here, but its kinda funny that this vid got posted along with the "bullshit" caption because this video is itself complete and utter bullshit perpetuated by Disney back in 1958. http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp Lemmings do not jump off cliffs, or engage in mass suicide. That wouldn't make much sense, would it? Now back to hatin' on the alphabet gang! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) Bullshit. Totally and completely off-topic here, but its kinda funny that this vid got posted along with the "bullshit" caption because this video is itself complete and utter bullshit perpetuated by Disney back in 1958. http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp Lemmings do not jump off cliffs, or engage in mass suicide. That wouldn't make much sense, would it? Now back to hatin' on the alphabet gang! Appropriate title and video for this subject. Would you agree? No letter produced today. Multiple calls made by other forum groups and most all of them say there is no knowledge of a ban. Someone claimed to have had a conversation with the office where the letter originated from and they said that 7ns was banned due to steel core. So there you have it, the bullshit continues. Edited March 31, 2014 by Stryker0946 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
varickm 10 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) If they did stop the importation of a round smaller than a .22 that does not meet AP specs, I think they would do more damage to their out of control department than good. How so? Who is going to sue them and face millions of dollars in expenses for an almost guaranteed defeat? NRA and GOA have tried it and generally lose. Their goal is to stop the people from becoming armed. I would think that any step toward making it harder on us regular folks would be a victory for them and their supporters (the moronic voters that got Mao 2 terms). Thanks for your pessimism. A simple fucking google search will show you the history of the BATF getting sued for stupid shit. This would be an easy one. I agree with Stryker....This should be an easy one to fight. It's not the same as a 15.9" barrel, because the law specifically states that rifle barrels must be no shorter than 16" . The 7n6 issue is about Congress' original intent. Not to mention, according to the letter of the law, 7n6 is NOT AP ammo. The core is not made entirely of steel. It includes lead. And Stryker is right. the diameter of 5.45 projectiles are smaller than .22 caliber projectiles. Both the statute AND the original intent of Congress are on our side. Edited March 31, 2014 by varickm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dogster 577 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Many are directing their anger at the "wildcats" that supposedly produced said pistol. Apparently NRA knew about this last year, as here is a May 2012 review of "The Pistol" : http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/robinson-arms-xcrl-pistol-review/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jpanzer 1,265 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 The Firearms blog is trying to cut through the BS. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/31/5-45-ammo/ Apparently the story was started by James Yeager and the dude at the Military Arms Channel, and in my opinion, BOTH those dudes are bona-fide idiots and little more than shills for various other commercial entities. They even bring up the fact on the Firearms Blog that "5.45 pistols have been on the market since at least 2010 (Robinson XCR and other AK-74 variants)", which makes the shitstorm about someone recently making a 5.45 pistol redundant and pointless. I've been calling BS on this since I first read it, and I haven't seen ANYTHING that makes me want to change my mind so far.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
varickm 10 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 (edited) The Firearms blog is trying to cut through the BS. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/31/5-45-ammo/ Apparently the story was started by James Yeager and the dude at the Military Arms Channel, and in my opinion, BOTH those dudes are bona-fide idiots and little more than shills for various other commercial entities. They even bring up the fact on the Firearms Blog that "5.45 pistols have been on the market since at least 2010 (Robinson XCR and other AK-74 variants)", which makes the shitstorm about someone recently making a 5.45 pistol redundant and pointless. I've been calling BS on this since I first read it, and I haven't seen ANYTHING that makes me want to change my mind so far.... Please spend a few minutes to read this.... http://www.lawandfreedom.com/site/firearms/GOA_Comments_ATF.pdf and this..... http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2012/batfe-taking-comments-on-sporting-purposes-exemption-to-armor-piercing-ammunition-law-until-dec-31.aspx.... Regardless of whether this 7n6 issue is legit, we MUST fight to revise the legal definition of "AP ammo".. A federal judge would agree that Congress never intended on giving "a guy who made a '.50 bmg handgun in his garage" so much power to control the people's rights. The issue just needs to make it to federal court. "It is already illegal to manufacture and import armor-piercing ammunition except for military or law enforcement use. But it is generally still not illegal to possess or transfer armor-piercing ammunition." - Barack Obama ATF and the gun grabbers will continue to use the vague AP ammo statute to push through their agenda. Edited April 1, 2014 by varickm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Well, I'm calling it: We that shoot and enjoy 5.45x39, are fucked. I'm going to have to reeaaaaaaaaaaaaaally stretch the enjoyment of my remaining 10,000 rounds of 7n6 surplus ammunition. Can only hope that a future leader (**caugh & gag**) will reverse this ATF policy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Well, I'm calling it: We that shoot and enjoy 5.45x39, are fucked. I'm going to have to reeaaaaaaaaaaaaaally stretch the enjoyment of my remaining 10,000 rounds of 7n6 surplus ammunition. Can only hope that a future leader (**caugh & gag**) will reverse this ATF policy. There's still Golden Tiger, but by that point it won't be any cheaper than 7.62. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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