Ronin38 2,117 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 I saw a story recently about HK "possibly" introducing a semi-auto MP7 pistol for us mere mortals. This got me thinking about the question of "What is a good, effective, semi-auto PDW?" (*PDW for this discussion being a larger-size pistol, carbine or SBR capable of holding 20+ rounds, semi-auto only!) Personally, I just don't "get it" with regards to the ultra-small cartridges like HK's 4.6x30mm or the PS90's 5.7x28mm. So, for what I'm interested in, what would be the general pro's and con's of the following cartridges, in terms of 10-100 yd. effectiveness, ammo availability and general "usefulness?" 4.6x30mm- IMO, not "sold" on it's effectiveness, proprietary, not reloadable, expensive, only 1 firearm so far... maybe. 5.7x28mm- Pretty much "same as above" but I honestly don't know if it's reloadable or not, only 2 choices for firearm so far. 22WMR- Good availability, "might" be decent for HD if you're concerned about overpenetration, but also not reloadable. Not many choices for firearm. (Threw this in for the heck of it, a friend has a PMR30 that he likes!) 9mm and .45ACP- Proven record of effective hollow-point ammo, LOTS of ammo choices and various carbines and pistols to use, reloadable! .223- LOTS of ammo choices of all kinds, reloadable, many pistols, carbines and accessories to choose from. I own a Kriss SDP .45ACP, and a DB-15 pistol in .223. They have both been completely reliable so far and I'm going to be getting more range time with them now that the weather is finally cooperating. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 223 woth 10 or 11 inch barrel would be fine I think. Better 2 old be an ak with 8" barrel in x39. These are my options. Also keltec is supposed to be making a rmr it's a pmr30 as a rifle with sliding my style stock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dayofruin 425 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 A 9mm AR pistol with a 7" barrel would be a good option. If you don't want to mess with proprietary mags and a mag block, there is a Glock mag lower receiver, but it's close to $300 stripped. A .300BLK AR pistol would be effective. The round is reloadable and has a vast choice of bullets that would be good for personal defense. The AK pistols are a sure win for a PDW. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted April 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Yeah, I'll be working with my .223 pistol, but later on I'll be checking out a pistol upper in either 6.8 SPC (I already have a rifle in this) or a subsonic .300 AAC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 In pistol caliber carbines what could be gained from anything other than 9mm, 40SW, 10mm, or 45ACP? Granted 10mm is fairly snappy in a handgun but in a carbine its great. All are reloadable (if you can get components ) and perform excellent out to well over 100m given the increased velocity. Some are very easily concealed and extremely reliable with lots of mag choices. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zaxon_182 44 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 I'm going to SBR a 10mm TNW Aero Survival Pistol after they're released. They take glock mags and have 9, 40, and 45 version already. The 10mm, 22mag, and 22lr versions are currently in development and slated to be released near the end of the year. The "upper" is the serialized part so you can interchange the magwell, barrel, and bolt and be ready to rock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 glock and glock kind of http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lone+wolf+g9+carbine&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=F1FC9E223E683095C4C5F1FC9E223E683095C4C5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Personally, I just don't "get it" with regards to the ultra-small cartridges like HK's 4.6x30mm or the PS90's 5.7x28mm. The P90 will take down a Death Glider. What more do you want? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted April 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Personally, I just don't "get it" with regards to the ultra-small cartridges like HK's 4.6x30mm or the PS90's 5.7x28mm. The P90 will take down a Death Glider. What more do you want? Perhaps just a smidge of reality? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Personally, I just don't "get it" with regards to the ultra-small cartridges like HK's 4.6x30mm or the PS90's 5.7x28mm. The P90 will take down a Death Glider. What more do you want? just add one thing 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 I think any sbr AK would make an excellent pdw. Maybe even a PPS 43 if you could afford a real FA one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ktcm7271 999 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 The pps-43 is a fun choice if you get the SBR stamp you can open the shoulder stock. Ammo is cheap and zippy. Kel-Tec Sub-2000 in 9mm with 33rd Glock mags looks fun too. Masterpiece arms mac-10 carbine in .45acp with 35 round mags would look great next to your Kriss. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 OK, kidding aside. Tavor. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 KT, my stamp should be here any day now if the nfa tracker is trending correctly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted April 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 The pps-43 is a fun choice if you get the SBR stamp you can open the shoulder stock. Ammo is cheap and zippy. Kel-Tec Sub-2000 in 9mm with 33rd Glock mags looks fun too. Masterpiece arms mac-10 carbine in .45acp with 35 round mags would look great next to your Kriss. Yes, it would. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Kel-Tec Sub-2000 in 9mm with 33rd Glock mags looks fun too. I have the all metal SUB-9, and I love it. This is an older pic of it: I've since added a small tri-rail onto the barrel, and cut out the handguard to accomodate. There's also a rail along the bottom to attach a Magpul AFG. Eventually, I might do something different with the sights and have the barrel threaded for a suppressor (though, being a blowback, there would be a lot of gas coming out the ejection port then). Yes, I know the grip is missing in the picture. I'm personally not as interested in a 223 or 5.56 with a barrel under 16", as I feel you lose too much velocity. The 7.62x39 lends itself well to shorter barrels though. A KRISS would be nice, I think, although I've never fired one. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ktcm7271 999 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 I agree with Corbin that the 5.56 in barrels under 16" wouldn't be my first choice. 7.62x39 will hit harder. Personally, I have a soft spot for pistol caliber carbines as PDW's. We have S-12's/AK's/AR's etc for the wide open spaces. Hell, I'm waiting for Kel-Tec to make the CMR-30 to go with my PMR-30. That will be some fun gunning (loading those 30rd mags with 22wmr takes forever though). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sccritterkiller 473 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Here is the thing about the 4.6 and the 5.7 round. They were designed for PDW use but it is using a AP round something us mere mortals will never be able to purchase. So I dont consider them a legit civilian PDW. So for that reason I choose the 6.8 something about 110 gr @ 2300 fps draws me to that round. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
frz1197 128 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 I have a few toys in the pdw category. My two dracos are fairly accurate. I was surprised at how good the 6" barrel on the micro draco was. The pps-43c is also a tack driver at 50ish yards. The hk-91 pistol (PTR-915) is a little much for me. I'm sure if i sbr'ed it accuracy would be improved. Even still it is a range toy as the blast of .308 out of a 9" barrel is blinding and prevents decent follow up shots. Still is a fucking ton of fun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mostholycerebus 415 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) AR15 in 300BLK has almost identical ballistics to 7.62x39, but is available in more modern cartridges like Barnes black tip. The design makes it short to begin with, but there are also PDW specific buffers out there that shorten overall package. Thats a 6" barrel, but 300BLK gets really good ballistics in 8.5"-12". Depending how you plan on using it, Buds Guns also has this system, which on a honey badger like above, could fit in a very small case indeed. One of the 300BLKs design goals was to allow an AR to replace the HK as a PDW. 5.56 just doesnt do well in SBR applications. Edited April 2, 2014 by mostholycerebus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 For those not wanting to sbr, the 300blk pistol with wrist brace would be tits. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted April 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) As I mentioned earlier, I already have a rifle in 6.8 SPC. I was interested in the new .300 BLK, so I did some quick ballistics research. It appears that for "normal" loads, the .300 uses a 110 gr. bullet with very similar results to the 6.8, at under 200 yards. If it's that close, I'd keep using the 6.8 for a pistol upper. (I already have reloading supplies for it!) I also found some info. on the 300 subsonic loads though. 200gr. bullet designed for under 100 yds?! With less muzzle flash and noise out of a short barrel?! Me likey! - Note: I have NO experience with the .300, so if I'm off on some of the numbers, just say so. Edited April 2, 2014 by Ronin38 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 I don't know if anyone here knows the answer, but can a 7.62x39 be reloaded with a heavy bullet to get subsonic stats similar to a 300 BLK? Just curious how that might allow for CQB range while suppressed (and probably indoors), yet you could go back to the full power loads for outside. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Corbin I see no reason why not. But bullets in the correct diameter for 7.62x39 is .311 not .309 like an American .30. The problem there is finding bullets 200+grains to make the weapon function Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 I'd rather have a SBR. Semi auto pistol caliber carbines are not my bag. Why have a pistol caliber rifle when you can have an actual rifle round that offers better performance. Now a true SMG would be different. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted April 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 My thought is that for HD (close range) purposes, I'd much rather have a 9mm or .45 instead of those tiny, little "rifle" cartridges. Those are so small I'm not convinced they would offer "better" performance at 25 yds. or less in a semi-auto. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 I prefer the 7.62 x 25 over 9mm. Higher velocity equals more force. Plus the tapered cartridge feeds and extracts more reliably. Unfortunately, the ammo has become difficult to find lately, but that goes for just about everything these days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 while I'd like to go with a pistol caliber that shares the same mag between a pdw and my handgun as many have stated the availability of ammo may make the choice something that uses nature as a feed source. worked for Van Helsing but you still need to be somewhere with trees. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted April 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Kind of hard to maneuver indoors, too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 My thought is that for HD (close range) purposes, I'd much rather have a 9mm or .45 instead of those tiny, little "rifle" cartridges. Those are so small I'm not convinced they would offer "better" performance at 25 yds. or less in a semi-auto. Then at that range, just use a handgun to begin with. I still prefer a rifle. Especially with HP or SP ammo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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