worse FTEs after conversion?

[7808 2]

Trying to figure out exactly what I need to do to my gun, drill out ports or get a reliability kit or what

 

Took my gun out to the range before I converted it, shot 25 Walmart federal target loads and 25 Winchester heavy target loads, 5 pack of slugs, if I remember right I had some FTEs but not like my second trip to the range after doing the pistol grip conversion using a Css kit , second trip I was getting bad FTEs almost every shot with Winchester 25 packs heavy target loads, by bad I mean they were not stove pipes, we had to pull them out or shake them out almost every shot. Took a peep in my gas ports maybe some of you experts can tell me if you see a problem

 

.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Something to consider is that your new hammer profile sits much higher than your OEM hammer, this robs energy from the cycle. There are many other factors, do some reading and you will get it functioning properly.

[Big John! 2,062]

Something to consider is that your new hammer profile sits much higher than your OEM hammer, this robs energy from the cycle. There are many other factors, do some reading and you will get it functioning properly.

The CSS hammer comes profiled.  I highly doubt this is the problem.  I'mma take a guess that this is not a problem with the conversion, but a problem that existed before the conversion.

 

It looks like (hard to say from the pic) you may have a 4 hole gas system?  If so, make sure that it's clear.  If not, pull the gas block and relieve some material to make sure that hole is not obstructed.  While the GB is off, (I'd do my research) and re-drill ports.  I had to drill my 4 hole out and profile and polish the bolt before mine ran.

 

All of this said, here's what I'd do if this were my gun.

I'd research here and drill out ports.  Check "Gunfun"s sig line for many threads on getting a s12 to run.

I did my own profile on bolt and hammer, but I have a few skills and tools so I do NOT recommend this for the novice.  You can go through the bolt and end up paying a pro to fix it.  Send your parts off to Cobra's custom and have them profiled correctly.  This is worth paying for, IMO.  It's very functional and looks cool as shit as well.

 

Some may disagree, but I'mma bet these two steps will get your gun running like a striped ape.  Do NOT throw gadget reliability crap at your gun.  It will not work.  This is the time you have to do your research.  I read till my eye's were practically bleeding as I had never worked on a firearm before.  In the end, it's worth it.  I had a great sense of satisfaction after getting my stubborn s12 running.  I would have saved a lot of trips to the range had I listened to the guys here and followed their every suggestion from the start.  

 

A little bit of your time getting the gas system right.  And a little more money spent with a guy like Cobra will get more done than any gadget.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Actually just from what I can see it's a 4 port gun but the front port may be slightly obstructed.Chances are my reliability service on the hammer, bolt, and carrier will clear up all the cycling problems here, especially since it was borderline cycling before conversion. I see this all the time and fix this all the time. My suggestion is to read through that long drawn out post in my business section about our Cobra's Custom Reliability service, especially the part about the hammer profile. Our hammer work takes anything that has previously been done to a Tapco' Red Star, or TAKT hammmer and brings it to a whole new level. It is then carefully matched to the profile and thickness of the bolt carrier to give you as little friction as possible. That along with our re-profiling of the bolt will not only fix the cycling issue but also make the weapon much easier to load on a closed bolt. Guaranteed.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

 

Something to consider is that your new hammer profile sits much higher than your OEM hammer, this robs energy from the cycle. There are many other factors, do some reading and you will get it functioning properly.

 

The CSS hammer comes profiled.  I highly doubt this is the problem.

Well shit, that has been my response to this type of thread for years, if the hammers are coming from Greg already profiled now then I don't know shit. My new revised response to this kind of thread is now "just read!"

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Unless something has changed that I am not aware of, the hammers that come in the Tromix G-2  kits sold (at CSS) for Saigas are not re-profiled. They have been shortened on the right hand side to allow for the BHO, the hump has been removed from the lower part to clear the ejector block, and that is all.

 

 In order for a company to sell an FCG you can drop into any Saiga 12 or a Saiga, Vepr, or AK rifle and expect it to function safely and reliably, the hammer needs to be a certain overall thickness front to back. This is so you can be certain it will be captured by the disconnect if the trigger is squeezed and held to the rear. With the huge variation in different areas of the Saiga 12 shotguns in particular, they have to make them all big to be sure they don't dip below (or anywhere near) the edge of the safe margin. It's a one size fits all thing.

 

 If you take a hammer that has been reduced far enough to get ultimate friction free and flawless reliability in a Saiga or Vepr 12, then drop that same hammer into an AK, Saiga, or Vepr rifle it will not have the same interaction with the disconnect and can be unsafe. For that reason the all in one FCGs available on the market as drop in Saiga kits can not be produced and sold to just drop into any gun. They are all the same and must be a minimum thickness to operate all of them correctly. These hammers also have casting lines present along the face and are not polished smooth.

 All this is precisely why our custom fit & matched FCG / bolt carrier sets give our Reliability Service customers the smoothest possible feel and the least possible friction you can get anywhere without a gunsmith actually building you a custom rifle or shotgun.

 

 I can see I need to post a new thread in my section about FCGs with comparison pics... and how the hammer actually interacts with the carrier and disconnect.

[Capt Nemo 882]

Actually just from what I can see it's a 4 port gun but the front port may be slightly obstructed.Chances are my reliability service on the hammer, bolt, and carrier will clear up all the cycling problems here, especially since it was borderline cycling before conversion. I see this all the time and fix this all the time. My suggestion is to read through that long drawn out post in my business section about our Cobra's Custom Reliability service, especially the part about the hammer profile. Our hammer work takes anything that has previously been done to a Tapco' Red Star, or TAKT hammmer and brings it to a whole new level. It is then carefully matched to the profile and thickness of the bolt carrier to give you as little friction as possible. That along with our re-profiling of the bolt will not only fix the cycling issue but also make the weapon much easier to load on a closed bolt. Guaranteed.

 

The ports look clear, but go to a True Value hardware store and buy a length of .068" music wire and see if you can get it in the front port.  If it fits, it should be good.

[Inspector 12 37]

 

Something to consider is that your new hammer profile sits much higher than your OEM hammer, this robs energy from the cycle. There are many other factors, do some reading and you will get it functioning properly.

The CSS hammer comes profiled.  I highly doubt this is the problem.  I'mma take a guess that this is not a problem with the conversion, but a problem that existed before the conversion.

 

It looks like (hard to say from the pic) you may have a 4 hole gas system?  If so, make sure that it's clear.  If not, pull the gas block and relieve some material to make sure that hole is not obstructed.  While the GB is off, (I'd do my research) and re-drill ports.  I had to drill my 4 hole out and profile and polish the bolt before mine ran.

 

All of this said, here's what I'd do if this were my gun.

I'd research here and drill out ports.  Check "Gunfun"s sig line for many threads on getting a s12 to run.

I did my own profile on bolt and hammer, but I have a few skills and tools so I do NOT recommend this for the novice.  You can go through the bolt and end up paying a pro to fix it.  Send your parts off to Cobra's custom and have them profiled correctly.  This is worth paying for, IMO.  It's very functional and looks cool as shit as well.

 

Some may disagree, but I'mma bet these two steps will get your gun running like a striped ape.  Do NOT throw gadget reliability crap at your gun.  It will not work.  This is the time you have to do your research.  I read till my eye's were practically bleeding as I had never worked on a firearm before.  In the end, it's worth it.  I had a great sense of satisfaction after getting my stubborn s12 running.  I would have saved a lot of trips to the range had I listened to the guys here and followed their every suggestion from the start.  

 

A little bit of your time getting the gas system right.  And a little more money spent with a guy like Cobra will get more done than any gadget.

 

I installed a Tromix modified trigger group when I converted mine and Jack at JT Engineering reprofiled it while he was doing the reliability work to it. Runs like a champ now. My gun is a four port and looked very similar to the picture the OP posted. Jack determined the front port was "shrouded" and took the gas block off to open it up some. He also drilled the holes to make sure they were the correct size and completely drilled. Jack also took out the retainer plate I used on the trigger pins and instead used the shepherds crook style of retainer.  He also used a different gas puck that he has and smoothed things up in general.

 

As stated GunFun's threads are an invaluable source of good information and for a do it yourselfer are an excellent road map of getting things running well. Since I have the abilities but not the time I opted to send mine in to get it done. Runs like a champ now even when using Federal 1200 FPS low base loads.

[7808 2]

Sucks these guns need so much messing around to run any ammo.  I did use the retainer plate not the Shepard crook... might have to do some reading and maybe pop off my gas block. I dont really have spare cash right now to send my gun off and have my problems taken care of the easy way (in between jobs)

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Sucks these guns need so much messing around to run any ammo.

 

Unfortunately though (but fortunately for those who care) these particular guns are military grade shotguns that were not designed to run on just any ammo. But with just a few mods they will be just as reliable with the cheap wallyworld BS as they will with magnum buck & slugs.

[Big John! 2,062]

Sucks these guns need so much messing around to run any ammo.  I did use the retainer plate not the Shepard crook... might have to do some reading and maybe pop off my gas block. I dont really have spare cash right now to send my gun off and have my problems taken care of the easy way (in between jobs)

Don't get down just yet.  With minimal skills and tools such as a drill, hammer, and file or dremel you can get the gas block off and make sure that the 4th port is not obstructed and drill the ports out to the proper size.  Again, do your research and you will find this to me a much more simple task than you might think.  Almost all of us here have done it.  Cobra's work will help with this.  There is no doubt in my mind.  That doesn't mean shit to you though if you don't have the cash to do it right now.  So... This being the case...  Start with the gas system, making sure that is right.  Then, if no love, save up for a polishing job.  You'll be amazed at how much material comes off these parts and wonder how they ever ran before the reprofiling. 

[7808 2]

I checked with a piece of 18awg solid copper wire, I was able to push it through all 4 ports pretty easily. I might swap out my retainer plate for the Shepard crook too, I seen that pop up a few times , then I might try it after that see if it makes a difference, probly dig in deeper after that. Tryin the easy stuff first obviously

Edited April 10, 2014 by 7808

[lbsrdi 1,078]

I checked with a piece of 18awg solid copper wire, I was able to push it through all 4 ports pretty easily. I might swap out my retainer plate for the Shepard crook too, I seen that pop up a few times , then I might try it after that see if it makes a difference, probly dig in deeper after that. Tryin the easy stuff first obviously

While you have it apart swapping out the crook, go ahead and compare your new hammer with the Russian hammer. I believe that you will see a major difference, this is a very common cause for after conversion problems with cycling on a gun that functioned well prior to the conversion.

[7808 2]

So the tapco fcg kinda sucks or what ?

[lbsrdi 1,078]

So the tapco fcg kinda sucks or what ?

I believe that continued FTE or FTF is a direct result of FTR(failure to read.) Here is an excerpt from one of the reading suggestions you received in this thread, it somewhat answers your most recent question.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

 FTR

 

 

 

Ding Ding Ding Ding!  This! ^

[7808 2]

Oops, ya my browser was so full of tabs searching saiga related info, and I did search a little for gunfun here, I guess I didn't search very well

[7808 2]

 

I checked with a piece of 18awg solid copper wire, I was able to push it through all 4 ports pretty easily. I might swap out my retainer plate for the Shepard crook too, I seen that pop up a few times , then I might try it after that see if it makes a difference, probly dig in deeper after that. Tryin the easy stuff first obviously

While you have it apart swapping out the crook, go ahead and compare your new hammer with the Russian hammer. I believe that you will see a major difference, this is a very common cause for after conversion problems with cycling on a gun that functioned well prior to the conversion.

 

I was trying to compare them on my bench today and see where the problem material is,and decide if its something I can do my self(i was told it does not require a gun smith, and also read if you take too much off its dangerous. I'm not expert, but, I'm guessing the area that needs material removed is the top when the hammer is down ready to fire , the surface that the bolt carrier rides against? Ive been trying to find a good how to or comparison /before and after pics of this.. I have more time them money right now, wouldn't mind attempting this my self and maybe polish a few surfaces while I'm at it

 

 

original hammer left tapco right

Edited April 12, 2014 by 7808

[goldenpony 61]

Wow, I was about to convert, but after reading these posts I might just leave it alone. I had FTEs when I first got the new gun. I did a lot of work and now she runs great. I took the gas block apart, verified the holes were clear and the right size(they were), relieved the hole around the holes so they were unshrouded(they were). I had Pauly glass block polish my bolt. Added a performance puck and a Tac 47 Auto Plug. Like I said, she runs perfectly now and I'd hate to have to start over.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Wow, I was about to convert, but after reading these posts I might just leave it alone. I had FTEs when I first got the new gun. I did a lot of work and now she runs great. I took the gas block apart, verified the holes were clear and the right size(they were), relieved the hole around the holes so they were unshrouded(they were). I had Pauly glass block polish my bolt. Added a performance puck and a Tac 47 Auto Plug. Like I said, she runs perfectly now and I'd hate to have to start over.

You would not be starting over. If you are that concerned with having to possibly reprofile your US rifle hammer to match the Russian shotgun hammer, you could just leave the Russian hammer in and still gain two US parts in your FCG. Bottom line we, and this forum, are here to help you and these after-conversion issues are only experienced by first time converters who have not read this forum, and are easily fixed.

[7808 2]

If your gun works fine now it probably will after the conversion, if it doesn't have the one side of the original hammer shaved down to clear the bolt hold open or whatever.

 

I had a few drinks in me last night and took the grinder and some sandpaper to my Tapco hammer, we'll see if I screwed it up or not. Still have my original

 

Anyone know how square the hammer has to contact the pin? Its pretty square but not perfect

 

Edited April 13, 2014 by 7808

[7808 2]

Went to the range today. 5 pack of slugs no prob 25 pack of target load 1oz 7 1/2 or 8 shot  non stop FTEs, gona pull the gas block off tonight

 

Whatever I took off the hammer seemed like I can cycle it by hand a little easier that's about all that did

[YOT 3,743]

Slugs on setting "1", target loads on setting"2".

[7808 2]

Yep

[7808 2]

So I guess I'm going to pop off the gas block and open up the 4 holes with a 5/64 bit, sand my inside reciever rails with some fine paper, I have a Css puck on the way to get my parts count up too, then hopefully it cycles target loads for cheap fun

[Capt Nemo 882]

Is there grinding on the ejector?  I had to mill my carrier slot to give clearance.  Mine lost a LOT of cycling friction with that mod.

[7808 2]

^{I'll check that, thanks}

 

^{Drilled my ports out to 5/64 the recommended size for 4 port gun, went out with a 25 pack of fed target loads 8 shot 1145fps and Winchester 8shot super target 1200fps both 1 1/8oz}

 

^{Only had about 2 FTEs with the Winchester and alot with the federal}

 

^{Half way through both packs I swapped out my original puck for a css puck, didn't seem to make a diff, not sure it would just sayin.}

 

^{I didn't file my gas block, just drilled the holes, angled towards the gas block puck like it was.  any ideas? Or will this gun jut not run anything below 1200fps?}

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Proper re-profile and polish of the hammer, bolt, and carrier  + sufficient gas delivery = reliable S-12 on most any ammo... This is a proven fact. Period.

[7808 2]

Thanks, ya thanks to this forum I have learned alot fast and that seems to be where everything points.. as a DIY'er  I tried to search for what felt like days for info on reprofiling the hammer without much info

 

Good thing is, the Winchester is the cheapest target ammo lol

[Capt Nemo 882]

Winchester varies all over the place for loading.  1/2 the time it's down around the 2 3/4 dram level, which rarely works all that well.  Federal is more consistant in loading.

 

When tweaking mine out, I had times that the Winchester worked better than Federal, but most of the time it sucked.

 

Edit: Also lube it good before you start shooting.  I hit mine with a drop of CLP per rail, one on the bolt stem, and one in the locking channel on the carrier.  It's a oily mess when you're done shooting, but it simply wipes down for cleaning.  Some folks like to use grease as well.  I forget what type, but I think it's spray white lithium. 

Edited April 26, 2014 by Capt Nemo