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I lived in AZ amongst Mormans(even some of them admit they're the ones the church didn't want, lol) and most are good people. However I have met alot of people like Bundy that have NO use for government on any level if it doesn't bend to their purposes. Corruption is rampant within small town politics to the point of "business as usual".

 

That said, I've worked for both the USFS and BLM back in the 80s. Iirc, for every 40 acres you owned, you could get a 99yr lease on 1K acres for little of nothing. The USFS/BLM maintained roads, etc with money from the leases, parks, grants. As the cost of doing so went up, so too did required fees across the board. Unfortunately, for some, esp the smaller ranches, it hit a tipping point where the only way to pay the leases was to run more cattle while the gov cut back the allowance for various reasons. A Catch 22 that drove many small ranchers out of business.

 

In actuality, cattle do damage the land. Esp in arid regions as well as more lush areas. Cattle travel on trails. Where the "Monsoons" hit these trails become trenches then ravines and eventually washes(washed out areas where little to no accessible grass grows) thus reducing overall grasslands. Yes this occurs with other wild species as well but we're looking at years as opposed to decades/centuries. Also look to the wolf impact on Yellowstone rivers, cattle have a similar effect as do undettered elk in Yellowstone.

I'm not against ranching, industry, etc., but I am for conservation in general. There are always better ways of doing things and let's face, man will do what's profitable moreso than what's right. That's where unregulated Capitalism fails. Unfortunately over regulation fails as well.

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Lets lighten this up...  

I could give a shit one way or the other about Bundy.  I don't see him as either hero or villian.  I do give him credit for standing up against tyranny, but he also had selfish motives for doing so.

Once all positions have been clearly stated all that remains is repeating ourselves and name calling.

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If you take just one article of the "long train of abuses" from the Declaration, one could say the crown had every right to enforce it's will and the colonists were wrong to take up arms.

 

"He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good."

 

Would not seem a matter worthy of a violent rebellion would it.

 

Think about it.

 

We indeed have suffered a very long train.

 

 

As for Reid...

http://www.reviewjournal.com/politics/reid-calls-bundy-supporters-domestic-terrorists

You guys are sure making it tough for me to not be behind this guy.

 

While the thought of rebellion sounds great against any part of this regime.  Especially that fucking douche Harry Reid.  I've likened this to Bundy coming to me saying that his dog has been shitting on my lawn since the 1800's.  All the while dog shit laws, and ownership has changed on my property, but he's still intent on having his dog shit on my property because his family has been doing before my home was built and that's just how it's gonna be.  Not gonna fly with me for a minute.

 

This is a tough one for me.  I really want to go woo-hoo, someone standing up for something they believe in.  But I just keep going back to the fact that he took this to court twice and lost.  Assuming the courts were not corrupt.  I follow laws and so should he.

 

 

I dont know Bundy only the reports from others, I do know some of the tactics the feds have used over time to drive out ranchers and acquire more and more land.

Good or bad he is not my concern, personally, though I wish him well. 

 

One could say Captain John Parker and the Lexington Militia got what it deserved for breaking the King's Law and indeed many did just as they will say it of Bundy as this thing plays out.

I didnt know Capt Parker either, but they where history placed them and did what principle dictated and things changed forever.

 

This isnt 1775 and we are not them, yet here we face an even more dangerous foe of liberty that is determined that you obey and in the process violates it's own mandate of law.

 

No my friend this is not about Bundy, cattle, turtles, or deeds. This, regrettable or not, is about where each of us choose to stand.

It is not where or why I would wish it but there it is... Lexington without the shot.

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I could give a shit one way or the other about Bundy.  I don't see him as either hero or villian.  I do give him credit for standing up against tyranny, but he also had selfish motives for doing so.

 

The heros were the ones who came to stand facing the muzzles of government machine guns and sniper rifles with absolutely nothing to gain personally.

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Darth

Heroes or useful idiots -- If I'm going to give my life for Freedom, it will be for Freedom and not to help someone not pay their debts...

 

"No my friend this is not about Bundy, cattle, turtles, or deeds. This, regrettable or not, is about where each of us choose to stand.

It is not where or why I would wish it but there it is... Lexington without the shot."

 

Rhodes

Gotta disagree with you.  The Bundy push back was about someone not paying their debts.  It has been made into folklore undeservedly if one strips away the rhetoric.  See it for what it is and it represents Lexington about as much as the attack on the Glewitz radio station had to with the provocation for World War II...  People will believe what they want to.  It is much harder to believe in the truth, especially when it goes against what you want. 

Edited by Odd Man Out
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I could give a shit one way or the other about Bundy.  I don't see him as either hero or villian.  I do give him credit for standing up against tyranny, but he also had selfish motives for doing so.

 

The heros were the ones who came to stand facing the muzzles of government machine guns and sniper rifles with absolutely nothing to gain personally.

 

And that would sum up my reasoning as well.

 

Perfectly legitimate to resist for reasons of self interest, heck we all have an interest in this one way or another.

Would not call it selfish but I have a clearly defined difference in my mind between it and self interest.

 

The ones that stood Saturday self interest is on a higher moral order than Bundy's (assuming I know), and on that shines some hope.

 

Edit:

OMO;

I understand your position but if as part of securing some measure of your progeny's liberty Bundy is freed also, well worth it wouldn't you say?

Like it or not, agree or disagree, it seems this dance is on.

Time and providence will tell.

Edited by Rhodes1968
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I could give a shit one way or the other about Bundy.  I don't see him as either hero or villian.  I do give him credit for standing up against tyranny, but he also had selfish motives for doing so.

 

The heros were the ones who came to stand facing the muzzles of government machine guns and sniper rifles with absolutely nothing to gain personally.

 

And that would sum up my reasoning as well.

 

Perfectly legitimate to resist for reasons of self interest, heck we all have an interest in this one way or another.

Would not call it selfish but I have a clearly defined difference in my mind between it and self interest.

 

The ones that stood Saturday self interest is on a higher moral order than Bundy's (assuming I know), and on that shines some hope.

 

 

I don’t use the word selfish as a pejorative.  To act in your own self interest is selfish.  That does not make it bad.

 

 

OMO, you are so convinced of your own brilliance that it is pointless to respond.  Worse than pointless because your butthurtness that anybody would dare to disagree mucks up threads.

 

And that is the last time I will bother responding.

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Darth

Don't forget your marbles...

 

Just here exercising my 1st Amendment rights like everyone else, sorry if that bothers you.  I think that if I was truly "butthurt" that I would have done what you are now doing quite some time ago.  I have no problem defending my views, can you not defend yours without throwing a small fit?  Peace, my friend.  We can discuss our differing views without rancor.

Edited by Odd Man Out
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I could give a shit one way or the other about Bundy.  I don't see him as either hero or villian.  I do give him credit for standing up against tyranny, but he also had selfish motives for doing so.

 

The heros were the ones who came to stand facing the muzzles of government machine guns and sniper rifles with absolutely nothing to gain personally.

 

And that would sum up my reasoning as well.

 

Perfectly legitimate to resist for reasons of self interest, heck we all have an interest in this one way or another.

Would not call it selfish but I have a clearly defined difference in my mind between it and self interest.

 

The ones that stood Saturday self interest is on a higher moral order than Bundy's (assuming I know), and on that shines some hope.

 

 

I don’t use the word selfish as a pejorative.  To act in your own self interest is selfish.  That does not make it bad.

 

 

OMO, you are so convinced of your own brilliance that it is pointless to respond.  Worse than pointless because your butthurtness that anybody would dare to disagree mucks up threads.

 

And that is the last time I will bother responding.

 

 

Well I understand it, I only draw a distinction between selfishness and self interest because if one doesn't the wrong idea can easily be passed on.

 

OMO;

 

I enjoy the debate, helps temper ones defense of a position. 

 

It is troublesome to read tone into text but folks still do it. Likely the most common cause of misunderstanding.

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I can not quote the exact laws that Bundy is in violation of but what I know is this;

1. Bundy paid fees to graze his cattle on BLM land as 16000 other ranchers do until 1993.

2. Bundy has refused to pay said fees since that time.

3. Bundy still grazes his cattle on BLM/not his specific land.

4. Bundy has been brought to court to pay the delinquent fees -- and lost

5. Bundy has brought action in court to fight the fees -- and lost

6. Bundy has ignored all court injunctions to pay the delinquent fees.

Also,

7. Bundy has said that he does not recognize the Federal government and

8. Bundy asserts that the only individual that has any power over him is the county Sheriff.

Both 7 & 8 are directly contradicted in Bundy's own State's constitution thereby destroying any "legal", logical or moral standing he may assert.

 

The following has been cut and pasted from the Constitution itself -- it can be found here  :http://www.leg.state.nv.us/const/nvconst.html

 

Third. That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States

 

Most importantly please read the following:

 

Sec: 2.  Purpose of government; paramount allegiance to United States.  All political power is inherent in the people[.] Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it. But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States; and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair[,] subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existance [existence], and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.

 

The truth shall set you free...

 

Oh, and Sparky, I may seem somewhat Godlike to you but all I am besides a totally sinful and flawed human being is not ignorant...you are so full of yourself [you cant smell it]

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Jim

But what if the State itself has codified the very things that Bundy is rebelling against in it's own Constitution?  See Sparky's post above yours and you will see that it has.  Bundy is therefore rebelling against his own state's constitution and while he and others may elevate his cause, he seems to be like a lot in this country that expects to be given something for nothing.

 

Sparky

Took you long enough buddy.  Ouch!!!

Here's a couple hints for next time.  You can delete all the extraneous stuff so people don't have to try and wade through stuff they don't need to, Then all you have is the hard hitting, ball wrenching, ego destroying third grade level insult you were trying so hard to imply.  Also,  don't type your ouchy ouchy so it looks like the original subject wrote it -- it could confuse the reader.  Better to completely separate it from the original quote.

Finally, always know that, like God, I am always here for you.  ;  )

Edited by Odd Man Out
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The separation into camps is progressing as it always does.

 

Statistism will defend the north goal, liberty the south, the ball is live.

 

There is nothing in that last to debate OMO, you nor I know what is in anyone's heart but I know for sure Bundy wasn't the one pointing rifles at the other side, at least at first.

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It's not over yet. They just wanted to calm the crowds down and let them think the people won. As soon as they blink, they will invade the compound and probably light it on fire or kill a mother holding a baby.

 

That asshole Harry Reid said "it's not over" and he will find other means of attacking the Bundy Ranch so he and  his Chinese cronies can enrich themselves at Bundy's expense even if it means murdering him or his family.

 

It was sad. As much as those agents pointing weapons at unarmed civilians was deplorable, it was equally deplorable to see civilians pointing weapons back at them. I can honestly not remember ever seeing the country this polarized ever in my 45 years alive. I don't even know who to blame? I guess we are all responsible for not putting our collective feet down years ago and limiting federal power when we still could.

 

It's a good thing the federal thugs did not murder anyone and I for one am glad these Nazi wannabes had guns pointed back at them.  The federal government has a lot more firepower and they didn't hesitate to incinerate the Branch Davidians and machine gun those who escaped the fire. The agents were said to have made T shirts to commemorate the atrocity they committed afterwards.  Federal power is out of control and I pray that we can get it back under control and that it's not too late.

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Jim

But what if the State itself has codified the very things that Bundy is rebelling against in it's own Constitution?  See Sparky's post above yours and you will see that it has.  Bundy is therefore rebelling against his own state's constitution and while he and others may elevate his cause, he seems to be like a lot in this country that expects to be given something for nothing.

 

Sparky

Took you long enough buddy.  Ouch!!!

Here's a couple hints for next time.  You can delete all the extraneous stuff so people don't have to try and wade through stuff they don't need to, Then all you have is the hard hitting, ball wrenching, ego destroying third grade level insult you were trying so hard to imply.  Also,  don't type your ouchy ouchy so it looks like the original subject wrote it -- it could confuse the reader.  Better to completely separate it from the original quote.

Finally, always know that, like God, I am always here for you.  ;  ) I work for a living [time is not an abundance of mine,

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The federal government has a lot more firepower and they didn't hesitate to incinerate the Branch Davidians and machine gun those who escaped the fire.

 

Not trying to pick a fight here, just need to be educated.  Haven't heard of the machine gunning survivor part, could you provide some proof on that?  Also, while the whole ending was a shambles (understatement), I also have not heard of government planning to deliberately incinerate the occupants of the place. 

 

 

Sparky....

It is very good that you have a job.  I don't.  I did for 47 years and now I reap the benefits of retirement.  It is a very good life indeed.

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Ruby Ridge?....remember that?

 

I get upset when the federal govt flexes military level muscle at civilians, for whatever reason.

 

And now it seems all patriotic people can be labeled domestic terrorists....and you know what that carries with it.

This is a bad thing anyway you look at it.

And this is just one thing in a long list of bad things currently being done.

Jim

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Yup I remember Ruby Ridge and have read about Wounded Knee.  Totally agree that government is out of control and feel that the facts can be used to illustrate its bad behavior without writing things that are not true.  We have too much revisionist history going on as it is. 

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Doesn't matter if it's local, state or federal. Become a mindset. Obey or be destroyed. Every once in awhile an example or mistake is made. If civilians are unjustly harmed or killed, persons who pulled triggers are suspended with pay, then an internal investigation, then send them back to duty. Ruby Ridge to LA law shooting over 100rds injuring 2 ladies delivering papers because pickup "Sort of looked like" gun mans truck. HUH??  Wrong house, home owner gets killed, it doesn't matter to those "It's the Law" justifiers. All these persons go back to enforcement, not protection. Our sheriff's dept. regularly reviews these cases. Even been brought up in county commissioners meetings. Amazed how the mindset of officials that allows this, just to protect the "System".  We have an ex officer serving 5 to 10 for an unjustified assault. If this officer was in most agencies it would have not even been an issue. Do you Protect your citizens from injustice or Punish citizens to protect injustices of the system. Saying it is "The Law" when those in power decide for political or personal interest which get enforced and to who gets punished and who gets a pass, destroys "Rule of Law". To the extent it has become SO flagrant, most are becoming aware there is No chance of justice.

Edited by Ruffian72
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I don't think it's about debt or taxes or any of that shit the MSM wants you to think. It's about the uselessness of all the government's agencies. The fight is not that he hadn't paid fees its the fact he shouldn't have to pay those fees. And why the hell does the BLM have afucking swat team?

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Ruffian
You make very good points.  As long as 
the majority of us remain sheep and stay quiet and do nothing to change things, 
well of course nothing will change and all we can do is whine and gnash our 
teeth.  Wake up, get involved and get changes made for the better -- and of 
course if a person says that they are only one person and can do nothing in the 
face of such great oppression, then, of course they are right because they have 
quit before even trying.
Also just because our corrupt "leaders" chose 
to ignore the law does not make laws any less valid.  Laws are laws until 
changed and many indeed need change or repeal but until that time happens making 
the argument that just because someone doesn't follow it then I don't have to is 
not well thought out and would only further weaken our great country.
 
AK
Why should Bundy not have to pay the grazing 
fees???
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I don't think it's about debt or taxes or any of that shit the MSM wants you to think. It's about the uselessness of all the government's agencies. The fight is not that he hadn't paid fees its the fact he shouldn't have to pay those fees. And why the hell does the BLM have afucking swat team?

A heavily armed "Bastards with Badges". Protect power, Not People. 25 years ago I WAS ONE. When a right idea goes so wrong. Have to justify, then confiscation, and drag net widens and little or no violation by private citizen gets them raided. Seeing persons lives destroyed and property confiscated on flimsy justification. Arresting "Property", since their is no case against individual, and they'll go bankrupt trying to get it back. Property is either used or sold by agency to pay for their tab and expand.  Ex: Raided an airfield to seize 2 planes. Guy hadn't done no wrong, happened to fly a person somewhere who was connected to a drug trafficker, no drugs or business related to drugs involved, yet property "Arrested". No arrest or charges ever brought against plane charter service. Destroyed this guys life. When you realize you are a pawn being used to enforce "Justified" abuse of power and to uphold "The Law" it makes a person sick. Yes, I was called to testify in this man's case. Fed courts drug it out until it bankrupted him. Could go on, yet no need. Too many are/have been conditioned to blindly fallow.

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Perks, pay, above the law mentality, leads most officers to go along. Power is an addiction. Politico's use this mindset. Remember the look of disbelief on my supervisors face when I resigned and reason given. Wonder how tyrants have gotten "Good People" to enforce brutality on it's fellow citizens?? Administrators and officers can ALWAYS justify their actions in upholding "The Law".

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Denzel's "Training Day" mentality and the politico's who profit and the addiction to "God" like power of enforcers is evident everyday through out our country at all levels of enforcement. When a "Good" officer truly makes a mistake in a split second action, the general population questions, due to brutality mentality that is rampant.

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The sad thing here is that the system protects its enforcers, and enables them to proceed with injustices, atrocities and any other form of wrong doing. To me, the BLM has proven its worth by hiring outside thugs to do their dirty work in a halfassed attempt intimidate the people. Well the people pushed back and they didnt know what to do, really. This is just another clear message to show the measure of their resolve. And its not just the BLM, but ALL of the so called agencies and departments that make up our corrupt system.

 

This once great nation is in far worse shape than our so called media reports, and is only getting worse by the day. The network of corruption is far deeper than any one agency or department, and its just a matter of time before these stand offs become a two way range.

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