... heroic as it was sad

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

Juggs and Nail

I don't see where the fight is.  I am not taking offense to the back and forth and most have been rather civil in their efforts to defend their position.  I'm singing cumbaya...

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Less about a fight, more about a horribly derailed thread. We have two threads on this, and the other isn't experiencing these problems.

 

Fight Club is more than just a place for fights, its the rubbish bin for any thread gone wrong.

[thebuns1 4,323]

Well that’s where a lot of the differences lie with this thread, be it viewed by Bible or bottle rockets.

Some think he has the right to do it his way based on the history of the land and his family

Some think he owes the government money for the use of these public lands

Most agree the government totally screwed up trying to handle it

And there is more than a little reason to suspect Harry Reid and his son have a vested interest in trying to get the land away from Bundy so they can sell it to the Chinese

Some believe there has been enough done wrong by the government to warrant violent actions by the citizens

Some think the government while stupid is still the best bet when compared to most of the world and aren’t ready to wave guns on camera.

I know what I think and why and have a pretty good understanding of what some others here think but maybe not why. So if we don’t all see it the same oh fucking well I’ve tried to make a case and I’ve got a right to my thinking and so do you.

But just to be clear if you disagree with me you’re wrong.  

I won't advocate violence, but as a last resort. But I damn sure don't want to see unarmed people being abused by gun toting feds. Like I said prior, I'm proud of the people who showed up willing to defend those who were abused.

[XD45 7,124]

Once all positions have been clearly stated all that remains is repeating ourselves and name calling.

[magsite20 1,664]

While I agree with most of your statement before the name calling let’s look at some of the whys we have on this. Part of the why I still ½ assed support the dumb asses in DC is based on a few things:

 

I grew up a military dependent and then spent 20 years in the military during all that time I went to a lot of places that while in some cases they were our allies they were very oppressive to their own people and others to the point of mass killings. What I saw 1^st hand said yeah we’ve got problems while there are a lot of others who have nightmares.

 

My study of history shows with the fall of major powers / empires comes chaos and death not a more perfect union. Best example may be Rome after it fell came the dark age.

So yeah we need it to be better but I still think the rule of law and voting out the garbage beats the possible creation of more decay of rights and chaos that could come with even a small armed revolution at this time.

 

I don’t think you can get 51% of the population to want real change where they might loose some government hand outs. Welfare and food stamps are real popular in some circles so without a majority supporting any changes you or I might want to make to enforce them we’d have to oppress them, well that didn’t work out well. Before any armed revolution is going to work we’re going to need a majority of like minded people and I don’t see that at this time.

 

Last but not least is my own feelings of entitlement, I want my military retirement check every month and I’m going to want those social security checks too in a few years. So I’m in no big hurry to tip over the apple cart over what I consider a few bad apples.

 

Once all positions have been clearly stated all that remains is repeating ourselves and name calling.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

 

While I agree with most of your statement before the name calling let’s look at some of the whys we have on this. Part of the why I still ½ assed support the dumb asses in DC is based on a few things:

 

I grew up a military dependent and then spent 20 years in the military during all that time I went to a lot of places that while in some cases they were our allies they were very oppressive to their own people and others to the point of mass killings. What I saw 1^st hand said yeah we’ve got problems while there are a lot of others who have nightmares.

 

My study of history shows with the fall of major powers / empires comes chaos and death not a more perfect union. Best example may be Rome after it fell came the dark age.

So yeah we need it to be better but I still think the rule of law and voting out the garbage beats the possible creation of more decay of rights and chaos that could come with even a small armed revolution at this time.

 

I don’t think you can get 51% of the population to want real change where they might loose some government hand outs. Welfare and food stamps are real popular in some circles so without a majority supporting any changes you or I might want to make to enforce them we’d have to oppress them, well that didn’t work out well. Before any armed revolution is going to work we’re going to need a majority of like minded people and I don’t see that at this time.

 

Last but not least is my own feelings of entitlement, I want my military retirement check every month and I’m going to want those social security checks too in a few years. So I’m in no big hurry to tip over the apple cart over what I consider a few bad apples.

 

Once all positions have been clearly stated all that remains is repeating ourselves and name calling.

 

 

You are working from misconceptions 4th.

 

One solves the problems to avoid the nightmares that surely manifest otherwise.

Solves not salves, the problem is government.

 

Empires fall, there is no other possible outcome, best not to take that mantle up in the first place but if it is too late for that then getting out of the business is the next best solution.

The problem is government.

 

Only one third of the population supported the first American revolution about the same as the second and probably the third. 

The ballot box has been rigged by the political parties that play the game of power and buy votes with welfare both corporate and otherwise. So forget the 51%.

The problem is government.

 

Your last is telling, and I hate to tell you this but you are part of the problem.

How much of your children's future are you willing to sell for the table scraps from DC?

Go ahead look at them and tell them.

 

I am old, lame, and my eyes dont work so well as they once did but I will not kowtow for a government check.

Take the money and use it to bring this mess down.

That is karma.

[magsite20 1,664]

Well yeah I was aware about how much of the population supported the revolution but I’m also mindful of the men who pursued it. We don’t have the likes of them today so any revolution today better count on mass numbers not massive wisdom because one of the other things that can bite you in the ass is mass communication. To me Bundy doesn't hit my need to revolution button but maybe that's just me.

 

We still have one of the best governments in the world today as screwed up as it is. Yes it’s a problem in many ways but no one has suggested a solution. Without a solution to the problem even on the table I can’t see tearing it down without first trying to fix it one vote at a time, to me term limits would be a really good start. Do you have a solution to the problem? I'm sure BLM will fire some people not for their ham fisted actions but for failing.

 

Last but not least again damn straight I take the money, one thing is I earned it and yes I pay my taxes not out of love purely out of fear, I’ve never denied it. When you can say you’re not taking the money and you’re not paying taxes I’ll be truly impressed but I’m still taking and paying till further notice.

[james lambert 3,059]

If he said that...he is screwed.

 

You cant say anything regarding a protected class of people and not be punished

Jim

[XD45 7,124]

Doc,  we're not advocating armed revolution.  You keep arguing against something we are not arguing for.  Do you think we're insane?  That we want to shoot it out with government ninjas?  That we want to die or go to prison for the rest of our lives?

 

You keep making this about Bundy.  It's not about him.  It's about the fact that this situation didn't call for force from the government.  But the government has become too willing to use it's muscle.  Even if Bundy is completely wrong (and maybe he is, he sure as hell isn't anything to be admired), the government response was unjustified.

 

And this is the part where I do exactly what I said above.  Repeat myself.

 

We're saying that having the ability and willingness to resist violence with violence will usually prevent violence. 

 

Most often all you have to do to stop a bully is show them you are willing to fight.  I've seen that more than once in my life.  Yes it's scary when you stand up to the bully.  There is always the risk that the bully will respond with violence.  But one thing you can be sure about when it comes to bullies, they will not stop on their own.  When threats and violence gets you what you want, you will keep using threats and violence.

 

We just need the government to understand that force is not the solution in every case, or even in most cases.  That force is only justified when other options are impossible.

 

Then we have the opportunity to work for change.

 

To maintain liberty you need 3 boxes.

 

The soap box.

The ballot box.

The cartridge box.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Darth Saigus

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

"We still have one of the best governments in the world today as screwed up as it is."

 

No we still have one the best countries in spite of being one of the worst run. Woodrow Wilson himself condemned what he helped build, on this point only I am inclined to agree with that man.

Imagine what it could of been...

 

​But enough of this, people separate as their minds lead them, no need to make one into something they are not.

May the chains rest lightly.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Rhodes1968

[magsite20 1,664]

Darth well said and put in a way I can respect.

I have a real problem with guns getting pointed, not a problem with having the guns out and on hand but if I get to the point of pointing / aiming a gun I'm pretty much planning on shooting period. It's too easy for 1 person to fuck up and bang off a shot they didn't really want to.

Lastly as a sign of good feelings all around I won't answer the question about do I think you guys are insane.

[XD45 7,124]

Lastly as a sign of good feelings all around I won't answer the question about do I think you guys are insane.

 

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Juggs and Nail

I don't see where the fight is. 

 

no fight.. Man has been mixing religion with culture as long as man has been using fire.. don't see that changing anytime soon no matter ho much the people who think they are "smarter" believe so... 

 

I keep my personal beliefs just that, personal...

as a Christian, I don't feel it's my job to pester people until they cave in and accept what I believe...

No, I simply share my belief.. if rejected, I shake the dust from my feet and move on...

 

Atheist many times are more "Orthodox" than Christians...

most men over 30 ain't gonna have their opinion swayed in a gun forum thread...

not saying they are wrong.. just saying the same arguments are pointless the 5,000th time through..

 

I have learned over doing this for years, when one's words are meaningless, it is better to remain silent...

 

"Liberty" is the understanding that your neighbors beliefs are as sacred as your own. Standing apart, together...

 

God Bless....

 

always seems to turn into a dogshit, bloody mess either way... Hence the reason for the password protected political sub forum...

 

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

Well said Juggs

[Big John! 2,062]

 

 

Whoa there cowboy.  Your feeling the need to interject the bible verses has somehow gotten past the mods and IMO has been a great addition to this great thread.  But now you (and I) will probably get this thread damned to the basement.

 

That said...  Messiah's views do NOT make him ignorant.  If you choose to believe that there is some dude in the sky making me type this, making you read this, making the ten thousand cars crash right at this moment in time, then fine.  Not all of us believe that.  Religion is people's way of dealing with their fear of death.  They need to believe that this is not a one way trip that when over, it's over.  The thought of Heaven makes people feel better.

 

Feel free to call me names.  I don't care, nor do I need your prayers.  When I die, the worms will eat me.  The end...

 

. 

 

Finally, why do you think Bible verses are so subversive that they need to "somehow gotten past the mods"?  Funny that all sorts of filth and semi porn can flourish here but Bible verses -- Whooah!!!  

 

Out of respect for the mods, I will only answer to this.  Unfortunately, when talking about religion, things can tend to get heated.  Therefore, on most forums, since religion is such a deeply held faith, this is where the line is drawn.  

 

Believe it or not Odd Man...  I see the Godlessness in this country as one of the main problems with it.  

[XD45 7,124]

Well said Juggs

Kiss Ass.

 

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

I agree with you Juggs, I just have a hard head...

And I will not be lukewarm if you get my meaning.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Nor will I.... Knock once...

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

http://townhall.com/columnists/douggiles/2014/04/27/bundy-made-boomhaeur-sound-like-demosthenes-and-yet-big-government-still-sucks-n1829919?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl

 

"In order to assist future foes of big government when their tanks roll into their back forty and they start shooting your sheep and tazing pregnant women in an overt attempt to bully you off your land, herewith are a few media tips once the reluctant media rolls up to film this egregious government overreach.

1. Say no to interviews with the NYT if your favorite song is “Home On The Range”.

2. Keep the conversation on cattle rustlin’.

3. Get spokesperson. Preferably, a black lesbian.

4. If you’re not getting yet what I’m getting at here with this list, it is: the media is not your friend.

5. Don’t say “Negro”.

6. Don’t say “Negro”.

7. Have friends that’ll punch you upside the head as soon as stupid words start coming out of your mouth.

8. And finally, please realize with the media nowadays it isn’t, “three strikes and you’re out”. It’s “one and you’re done.”

Just ask Todd Akin."

 

Aint that the truth.

[Big John! 2,062]

http://townhall.com/columnists/douggiles/2014/04/27/bundy-made-boomhaeur-sound-like-demosthenes-and-yet-big-government-still-sucks-n1829919?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl

 

"In order to assist future foes of big government when their tanks roll into their back forty and they start shooting your sheep and tazing pregnant women in an overt attempt to bully you off your land, herewith are a few media tips once the reluctant media rolls up to film this egregious government overreach.

1. Say no to interviews with the NYT if your favorite song is “Home On The Range”.

2. Keep the conversation on cattle rustlin’.

3. Get spokesperson. Preferably, a black lesbian.

4. If you’re not getting yet what I’m getting at here with this list, it is: the media is not your friend.

5. Don’t say “Negro”.

6. Don’t say “Negro”.

7. Have friends that’ll punch you upside the head as soon as stupid words start coming out of your mouth.

8. And finally, please realize with the media nowadays it isn’t, “three strikes and you’re out”. It’s “one and you’re done.”

Just ask Todd Akin."

 

Aint that the truth.

When you listen to the whole interview, he isn't far off in his thinking.  Just like the Robertson's this Bundy's interview was cherry picked.  Could he have said it better?  I guess so.  He comes from a different generation that has their way of speaking me thinks.  Glenn Beck made a big deal out of it and cherry picked the interview to suit his agenda.  Beck has sold out, IMO.  I'm done with that fucker and the douche bag Blaze.  Can't get the fucking truth anywhere in media.

 

BTW...  Since when is the word negro a big deal?  

Edited April 27, 2014 by Big John!

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Man I dont know what call people any longer either, its changed four times for that particular tribe in my lifetime... at their insistence.

 

I dont see anything wrong with what the man said, in fact it contained some very uncomfortable truths, but how many media savvy 60 year old ranchers does anyone know?

Dont ride a horse you dont know.

[james lambert 3,059]

You cant tell the truth!!!!

 

At least about certain people

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

Non one will listen o the whole thing. They will just eat what the news feeds them. Book by its cover is way to in vogue today. Sad part is the news is into fiction.

[magsite20 1,664]

safe bet is there is no right answer for addressing people by any race and have 100% agreement that everyone is happy with the title.

I wasn't a Bundy fan before but this shouldn't even be an issue, the old boy just said what he thought big deal. But as soon as you bring race up you're going to piss some one off. Has Jesse Jackass or not to Sharpe Al showed up yet? If they don't that means Bundy doesn't have enough money to interest them.

[pjj342 632]

I prefer 'dude', but cracker, honky, peckerwood, white bread, jive ass peckerwood, or white devil are all acceptable.  I have no problem being called a slur, as long as I can use them at my own discretion.  Racist, no.  Pro english language, YES.

nigga

[Big John! 2,062]

safe bet is there is no right answer for addressing people by any race and have 100% agreement that everyone is happy with the title.

I wasn't a Bundy fan before but this shouldn't even be an issue, the old boy just said what he thought big deal. But as soon as you bring race up you're going to piss some one off. Has Jesse Jackass or not to Sharpe Al showed up yet? If they don't that means Bundy doesn't have enough money to interest them.

I'll guarantee he didn't start that topic.  The NYT did.  Same as asking an old God fearing duck hunter what he thinks about gays.  That's the difference with this generation that is quickly dying off right before our eyes...  The tells it like they see's it.  My grandfathers probably would have said worse.  Hell, my grandmother whom is long gone used to refer to black women as "ni$$er lady"  It was the way it was for her as she was lived through these times.  She did not use the term in anger.  I do not remember her as being a racist at all.  But I do remember that term rolling off her tongue like it was nothing.

 

There is no changing my mind that people of color are more racist than I'll ever be and I'm actually quite tired of hearing how racist white folk are.  I'd love to see the NYT do an interview with the kind folks in Chicago, Detroit, or the like and ask them about race.  It wouldn't be much of an interview due to bleeping out words white folk aren't allowed to say.

[thebuns1 4,323]

People always take shit out of context to scrutinize others. This is no different.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=228968

 

KD comments with included unedited video 

[james lambert 3,059]

Thanks for that link!

Jim

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

When one reveals his true self... believe it.