... heroic as it was sad

[Spartacus 1,619]

Jim

I only used it to show my reasoning for myself and myself alone.  Was not trying to proselytize.  Understand what you are saying completely.  The verses were trying to show the background behind my own motivation only. 

 

Hey, since you are a Christian here's a question for you; Do you think Christ would condone killing someone for the sake of defending Freedom?  Is someone else's life worth less than your own freedom?

 

 

If somebody is perpetrating evil against you and comes armed to do it, it's a simple matter of self defense.

 

If the bad guy is armed, then he is indicating he will hurt or kill you to get his way. He is telling you what he

wants is worth more than your life. He is the one taking the initial action and making the judgement.

 

The bad guy is always the one who gets to decide if there will be bloodshed. He can choose not to commit his

evil acts and there will be no bloodshed.

 

I would never want to hurt anybody. But when faced with somebody that wants to hurt me, it's my right to stop them.

It has nothing to do with me judging my freedom higher than somebody else's life. Asking them nicely to stop or

quoting bible verses will not stop them. You have to meet force with force.

 

I don't think Christ wants you to stand there like a drooling idiot while others steal from you, enslave you, or kill you.

There's no judgement about it, you have a God given right to defend yourself.

[Big John! 2,062]

Very good points made in this thread.  I was with you for a bit Odd Man.  Now, not so much.  I think I was with you because the thought of being on the brink of civil war bothers me deeply.  Therefore, the thought of a peaceful resolution sounded good to me.  My thoughts serve as a prime example of what other sheeple think.  Am I sheeple?  I'd like to think not.  This thread has proven to me that I have more work to do within myself if I want to live by the constitution as I claim to.

 

Finding this online gun forum has literally changed my life. Thoughts given here by you guys have opened my Californicated eyes to so many things.  I know what it is to be a liberal.  I know what it is to be a sheeple.  I had given up.  Succumbed to the man.  Now, thanks to you guys and a lot of research generated by you guys, I have made a turn in the opposite direction with my life and the teachings of my children.

 

Thanks guys! 

[DLT 1,646]

It makes me happy to know that so many different different people with different backgrounds, and from various parts of this country can have a civil and productive discussion even if it is only online. And Big John, we owe you a big thank you for the many wonderful visual gifts you provide us with on a regular basis.

[james lambert 3,059]

Jim

I only used it to show my reasoning for myself and myself alone.  Was not trying to proselytize.  Understand what you are saying completely.  The verses were trying to show the background behind my own motivation only. 

 

Hey, since you are a Christian here's a question for you; Do you think Christ would condone killing someone for the sake of defending Freedom?  Is someone else's life worth less than your own freedom?

God commanded his people to kill entire nations down to the last man and goat for the freedom of his people.

Dont play this game with me

Jim

[Nailbomb 10,221]

http://thelibertyfeed.com/bundy-ranch-unearths-mass-cattle-grave-graphic-images/

 

In case you were wondering where the rest of the cattle went... They're digging them up now...

 

[Nailbomb 10,221]

while we're getting all philosophical...

 

 

 

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:36

 

On the cost of following Jesus...

 

 

25Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, 26"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

Luke 14:25,26

[breid1970 327]

Valid points all around. Yes it seems some folks got a little heated. There seems to be two sides at work here. The somewhat moderate and the more extremist. Both sides are adamant in not backing down. Call it a stalemate and move along in a friendly manner.

[XD45 7,124]

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

Edited April 22, 2014 by Darth Saigus

[james lambert 3,059]

Very nice quote!!

Jim

[james lambert 3,059]

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

-- John Stuart Mill

[U.S. Pratorean 1,234]

http://thelibertyfeed.com/bundy-ranch-unearths-mass-cattle-grave-graphic-images/

 

In case you were wondering where the rest of the cattle went... They're digging them up now...

 

Like I stated earlier. This criminal administration is totally out of control and someone in the regime need to go to jail.

WTF is with these pics?? I know they are animals but did the JBT's kill these and try to hide them??

These remind me of the people the nazis did this to and tried to hide them as well. Croatia also comes to mind. Scary pics and should make anyone think they might do this to you. Bundy initially might not have been acting within the law however this has now changed that and maybe he was aware his animals and property were being destroyed. 

[XD45 7,124]

 

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

-- John Stuart Mill

This quote was on the wall of my First Sergeant's office when I reported to my first duty station.  Years later I found that this version is actually somewhat bastardized, and less profound than the true version.

 

 

“But war, in a good cause, is not the greatest evil which a nation can suffer.  War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse.  When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people.  A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice – a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice – is often the means of their regeneration.  A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.  As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.”

John Stuart Mill (1806-1873), “The Contest in America.”

Edited April 22, 2014 by Darth Saigus

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

 

Jim

I only used it to show my reasoning for myself and myself alone.  Was not trying to proselytize.  Understand what you are saying completely.  The verses were trying to show the background behind my own motivation only. 

 

Hey, since you are a Christian here's a question for you; Do you think Christ would condone killing someone for the sake of defending Freedom?  Is someone else's life worth less than your own freedom?

God commanded his people to kill entire nations down to the last man and goat for the freedom of his people.

Dont play this game with me

Jim

 

I think it is you who are playing games to try and justify things to yourself Jim.  Ever hear of the new covenant???  As I have said, many christians use the Bible to promote whatever worldview they want to push, whether or not it can be justified.  The Bible is the word of God but man has a tendency to corrupt it for their uses. 

[Nailbomb 10,221]

[XD45 7,124]

Somebody get that man an optic.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

and a conversion kit.

[magsite20 1,664]

Bible quote some need to make note of at times:

 

Matthew 7:15-20

New King James Version (NKJV)

 

¹⁵ “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. ¹⁶ You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? ¹⁷ Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. ¹⁸ A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. ¹⁹ Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ²⁰ Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

doesn't say to be or deal with fruits and the whole bit with Bundy, the government, the militias point guns all looks pretty damn fruity to me and I can't see any good coming out of it. There was nothing heroic going on but it was sure as hell sad.

 

so much for my Bible thump.

[XD45 7,124]

Sad is Waco TX. This was shaping up to be another Waco or Ruby Ridge.

 

Those who showed up and said Not Again were heroic. Sad would be a nation of apathy that sits and does nothing while government commits murder again in the name of law enforcement.

 

When government fears the people you have freedom. When the people fear government you have tyranny.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Darth Saigus

[magsite20 1,664]

I don't know what it is, but there is more than likely something that would get me to pick up a gun and take exception to the government. I do know this sure as hell isn't it. Bundy wasn't so right and the government wasn't so wrong that this would trip my trigger.

Edited April 22, 2014 by the 4th Doctor

[XD45 7,124]

It doesn't matter if Bundy was right or wrong. What matters is that the government response was unjust and oppressive.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

I honestly believe the "standoff" STOPPED the violence...  forced other options to be explored... good on all fronts...

[thebuns1 4,323]

It doesn't matter if Bundy was right or wrong. What matters is that the government response was unjust and oppressive.

This^^

The people have been more than passive for a long time and the government has shown no sign of easing off of their tactics in these scenarios. I'm proud of the response of the people.

[magsite20 1,664]

Guess I define what an oppressive government is a little differently than some. I’m not saying it’s a good or right government (or even smart) we have but it’s not one I’m ready pull a gun on at this point.

In the world right now there are many oppressive governments today and there is a long history of governments that would be better described as horrific.

IMHO ours is just poorly operated and stupid right now.

To me looking at the size of the problem and the real level national support (I don't think there's much) for the issue the battle should still be fought with ballots not bullets, but folks are going to do what they think is best for them.

[XD45 7,124]

The battle was not fought with bullets.  That's the point.  If those people had not taken a stand this would have ended with bullets.

 

Bullets were used in Waco and Ruby Ridge and too many other instances where government thugs murdered citizens in the name of law enforcement. 

 

You don't feel this government has reached the point of being oppressive, but the founding fathers started a revolution against a government that was by just about any measure less oppressive than this one.

 

The ballot only works when backed up by bullets.  Do you think that those in power would simply step aside because of an election if the people were powerless? 

 

Because we CAN resist tyranny, just maybe we won't have to.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

The ballot only works when backed up by bullets.

 

[breid1970 327]

I think that somewhere along this beaten thread folks missed the elephant in the room.

[SaigaSlinger 61]

Every federal agency created to "help" us has an enforcement arm.  Even the Dept of Agriculture, Post Office, and Social Security Administration have swat teams. 

 

"They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."  Daniel Webster.

. I didnt know that. Is that what the billions of rounds of ammo they've been buying is all about? what a waste of money

[cscharlie 107]

I honestly believe the "standoff" STOPPED the violence...  forced other options to be explored... good on all fronts...

This is what happened!

[james lambert 3,059]

If this comes to violence....Its a big loss for everyone.

 

Its time people of that state elect some new people to represent them

jim

[magsite20 1,664]

I honestly believe the "standoff" STOPPED the violence...  forced other options to be explored... good on all fronts...

oh I agree but

when the BLM left I'm thinking they said something

 

and they'll be better set up next trip. this isn't over it's just on pause.