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tbryanh

Best Trigger Group for .223?

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Apparently because the Tapco G2 hammer face is round instead of flat, and the .223 bolt has a slightly longer tail than the 5.45x39 bolt, the Tapco hammer can peen the tail face of the .223 bolt.

Apparently a peened bolt does not affect the function or reliability of the rifle, but I would like to install a trigger group that does not peen the bolt and still provides 3 items toward 922r.

What USA made trigger group might work better than the Tapco G2?

SOURCES
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/78555-picked-up-an-s223-on-trade/?view=findpost&p=787468

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/78555-picked-up-an-s223-on-trade/?view=findpost&p=800898
 

Edited by tbryanh

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I have no input on the RSA trigger, but the K-Var/Arsenal trigger is the closest to what is correct for the Saiga rifles, the K-Var/Arsenal FCG being an AK-74 type FCG.

 

The action will also be a bit smoother vs. the G2 group, as the AK-74 type FCG requires less travel to reset, and has a less aggressive hammer face profile.

 

You can also take a stone to the Tapco hammer and profile it flat, similar to the factory hammer, and the issue goes away at that point.

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Because the The Red Star Arms trigger is CNC milled from solid steel bar stock, it seemed impressive. But after learning about the 4 adjustment screws it has, I lost confidence in it.

It has screws to adjust overtravel, sear engament, disconnector engagement, and spring tension.

I question my ability to adjust the trigger properly and fear my rifle might go into full auto at the shooting range when the police, DOJ, etc. are there.

I question the reliability of the adjustments. Whats to prevent the screws from vibrating or impacting to different settings? There are no set screws to lock the adjustment screws in place. Are you supposed to use loctite?

 

I question the screw holes that were made. Seems like the perforated metal might break.

I doubt the Russian military would allow such a trigger in their rifles.

Edited by tbryanh

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you could probably use a spring-loaded center punch to stake the adjustments when you have them where you want them, but that's a semi-permanent task.

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. . . the K-Var/Arsenal trigger is the closest to what is correct for the Saiga rifles, the K-Var/Arsenal FCG being an AK-74 type FCG.

Is this the one:

"AK-922S US MADE FCG ~3pc. Hammer, Single Catch Trigger and Disconnector for Stamped and milled receivers. - Metal Injection Molded - Black Oxide Finish - Designed from the original AKM By Arsenal Inc. Las Vegas, NV"

 

http://www.k-var.com/shop/AK-922S.html

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Yep.. The downsides of the Arsenal FCG are people still saying they need to be polished out of box, and I've read of one literally exploding before.  Never used one myself.

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Some are saying that the Arsenal failes and that the Tapco G2 is more reliable.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=130003

 

Tapco says "All of our G2 components are heat treated, manufactured out of 4140 tool-grade carbon steel, and finished in dark black oxide."

 

Sounds pretty good. Not sure why Tapco made a rounded hammer instead of a flat one. Maybe taking a stone to the Tapco G2 hammer and profiling it flat, as mancat mentioned, is the way to go.

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I think the G2's hammer is excessively "humped" so that it has the longest throw back possible when engaged by the carrier, so that it is guaranteed to reset properly with almost any type of AK. The tradeoff would be that it may give the typical "notchy" feeling to the carrier operation, out of the box.

 

Keep in mind, Tapco simply bought the G2 design from Gordon Firearms, and they really haven't tweaked it much since then. I don't know if even they would know why the hammer was made the way it was.

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I really like the Red Star triggers. Blue lock tight after getting it set up the way you want it and forget about it. I like being able to set the first stage to 1mm take up before a nice clean break on the second stage. Can't say enough good about them.

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Apparently because the Tapco G2 hammer face is round instead of flat, and the .223 bolt has a slightly longer tail than the 5.45x39 bolt, the Tapco hammer can peen the tail face of the .223 bolt.

 

Apparently a peened bolt does not affect the function or reliability of the rifle, but I would like to install a trigger group that does not peen the bolt and still provides 3 items toward 922r.

 

What USA made trigger group might work better than the Tapco G2?

 

SOURCES

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/78555-picked-up-an-s223-on-trade/?view=findpost&p=787468

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/78555-picked-up-an-s223-on-trade/?view=findpost&p=800898

 

I would try and contact this group. The Texas AK trigger set I believe was forged not cast. I did business with them years ago, but have not spoken with them lately.

http://texasaktriggers.com/

Good luck,

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Because the The Red Star Arms trigger is CNC milled from solid steel bar stock, it seemed impressive. But after learning about the 4 adjustment screws it has, I lost confidence in it.

 

It has screws to adjust overtravel, sear engament, disconnector engagement, and spring tension.

 

I question my ability to adjust the trigger properly and fear my rifle might go into full auto at the shooting range when the police, DOJ, etc. are there.

 

I question the reliability of the adjustments. Whats to prevent the screws from vibrating or impacting to different settings? There are no set screws to lock the adjustment screws in place. Are you supposed to use loctite?

 

I question the screw holes that were made. Seems like the perforated metal might break.

 

 

The RSA trigger is less likely to go full auto. I used to get inadvertant bumpfires with the Tapco G2 all the time; haven't had a single one since switching to RSA. I find the adjustment I want, and red loctite them. They aren't going anywhere.

 

They are also forged, not MIM like Arsenal or whatever crappy material Tapco uses. Even with the small holes they are still stronger.

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When making the perfect trigger the red star makes it easier the tapco takes more knowledge to make right, but can be done.

I literally spent three evenings tuning the g2 in my .233

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I might give RSA a try.

 

Seems to me their sales might skyrocket if they had a couple of non-adjustable triggers for sale in addition to their adjustable one.

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Most of the Dinzag info seems to be geared towards Saiga shotguns, or those that keep the hold open installed.

 

A converted Saiga .223, with the BHO removed, will take any standard AK FCG.

Edited by mancat

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Red star arms triggers will need fitting of the trigger to fit inside the trigger guard.

 

I had to modify the pre-travel adjustment area to clear the screw that holds the back of the trigger guard inside the receiver. That's the only adjustment I had to make. It means that I can't adjust for pre-travel, which is not a big deal with this trigger as the amount of default pre-travel is fine.

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Anybody know anything about the K-Var AK-922DS U.S. made Double Stage Fire Control parts. Includes: Trigger, Hammer, and a Disconnector? http://www.k-var.com/shop/AK-922DS.html?page=3

 

The article "Modernizing the AK Part 6: Triggers" (http://jerkingthetrigger.com/2011/05/14/modernizing-the-ak-part-6-triggers/) describes the RSA, Tapco G2, and K-Var AK-922DS triggers. I think a two stage trigger might be best, and I am thinking about trying the K-Var AK-922DS.

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the two stage is what Arsenal puts in the SGL rifles. personally I don't really care for it, as the second stage seems to break really hard on every one I've shot.

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It might be the K-Var AK-922DS trigger is made by Arsenal. I need to know more about it before I am willing to try it. If its an Arsenal trigger in disguise, I don't want it. K-Var says almost nothing about it. Very strange.

Edited by tbryanh

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RSA makes the  SAR-3 Hammer to "correct .223 bolt contact in your Romanian Rifle. 100% ignition with this hammer. No more misfires. " http://www.redstararms.com/index1.html?c1.html&1

 

Interesting that the Romanian rifle requires a special hammer for .223. Kinda makes me wonder if the Saiga needs a special hammer for .223 too?

 

Interesting that the RSA website says its trigger is available for

All Arsenal Rifles
M77 .308 M76 8mm
AK 7.62
AK 5.45
Romak 3 7.62x54r
SAR-3 .223
SAIGA 12 SAIGA 20 converted to pistol grip
VEPR .223/7.62/5.45
VEPR .308 requires special hammer
WASR-10 7.62
MAK90 .223
Galil .223

http://www.redstararms.com/index1.html?c1.html&1

 

It does not mention the Saiga .223 or the AK .223. Kinda makes me wonder again if the Saiga needs a special hammer for .223?

Edited by tbryanh

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I would try and contact this group. The Texas AK trigger set I believe was forged not cast. I did business with them years ago, but have not spoken with them lately.

http://texasaktriggers.com/

Good luck,

 

Their website doesn't say if the triggers are single stage or two stage.

Edited by tbryanh

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I would try and contact this group. The Texas AK trigger set I believe was forged not cast. I did business with them years ago, but have not spoken with them lately.

http://texasaktriggers.com/

Good luck,

 

Their website doesn't say if the triggers are single stage or two stage.

 

The one I bought for my Vepr 12 from them a couple years ago was single stage, I believe all their triggers are and the only two stage triggers that come to mind are red star and arsenal.

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I am wondering what the adjustment screws on the RSA trigger are made out of and how easy do they break? They seem like they might be weak links.

 

Will the RSA trigger work if all of the adjustment screws are removed?

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It might be the K-Var AK-922DS trigger is made by Arsenal. I need to know more about it before I am willing to try it. If its an Arsenal trigger in disguise, I don't want it. K-Var says almost nothing about it. Very strange.

 

K-Var and Arsenal are basically the same company. The AK-922DS is an Arsenal FCG.

RSA makes the  SAR-3 Hammer to "correct .223 bolt contact in your Romanian Rifle. 100% ignition with this hammer. No more misfires. " http://www.redstararms.com/index1.html?c1.html&1

 

Interesting that the Romanian rifle requires a special hammer for .223. Kinda makes me wonder if the Saiga needs a special hammer for .223 too?

 

Interesting that the RSA website says its trigger is available for

All Arsenal Rifles

M77 .308 M76 8mm

AK 7.62

AK 5.45

Romak 3 7.62x54r

SAR-3 .223

SAIGA 12 SAIGA 20 converted to pistol grip

VEPR .223/7.62/5.45

VEPR .308 requires special hammer

WASR-10 7.62

MAK90 .223

Galil .223

http://www.redstararms.com/index1.html?c1.html&1

 

It does not mention the Saiga .223 or the AK .223. Kinda makes me wonder again if the Saiga needs a special hammer for .223?

 

The SAR-3/WASR-3 do have unique bolt dimensions.

 

The Saiga .223 bolt is only marginally longer in order to facilitate the spring-loaded FP. The factory hammer is the same as all others.

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Here are trigger groups from three Saiga rifles, two 5.45x39 rifles and one .223 rifle.

The trigger groups were not analyzed as they were removed, and they were placed in the same storage container after they were removed, so they got mixed together.

I have sorted them out as can be seen in the photo. Hopefully they are sorted correctly.

The trigger group on the left appears to be different than the rest. This indicates it is from the .223 rifle.

There are two differences that are obvious. The one on the left does not have the extra lever, and it appears the hammer is profiled differently. The most notable difference in the hammers can be seen by observing the differences in the dimensions of "A" and "B".

post-44407-0-57419400-1399217366_thumb.png

Edited by tbryanh

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RSA makes the  SAR-3 Hammer to "correct .223 bolt contact in your Romanian Rifle. 100% ignition with this hammer. No more misfires. " http://www.redstararms.com/index1.html?c1.html&1

 

Interesting that the Romanian rifle requires a special hammer for .223. Kinda makes me wonder if the Saiga needs a special hammer for .223 too?

 

I am wondering what the adjustment screws on the RSA trigger are made out of and how easy do they break? They seem like they might be weak links.

 

Will the RSA trigger work if all of the adjustment screws are removed?

 

It does not mention the Saiga .223 or the AK .223. Kinda makes me wonder again if the Saiga needs a special hammer for .223?

 

The Saiga 223 runs fine with the RSA trigger.

 

The RSA will not work without the screw in the disconnector. The others could be done without.

 

Let us know if you find any Internet reports of the RSA trigger pieces or screws breaking. I doubt you will find any.

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Looking at this new photo I took and processed a bit, it appears that event though the hammer on the left probably came from a different mould than the other hammers, there might not be any significant difference in the profiles of the hammers as far as where the hammers contact the firing pins/bolt tails.

post-44407-0-69238700-1399245580_thumb.png

Edited by tbryanh

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