jergoff 1 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 (edited) Winchester 2.75" 8 shot bulk pack will not cycle with auto plug screw clamped all the way down. Mags tried: SGM 12 round, MD arms 20 drum Remaining ideas to try today: Remove rail from gas tube Anything else? Edited May 4, 2014 by jergoff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 Did you re-profile the hammer? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 (edited) If that is Winchester Universal that you are using, you will likely need some degree of gunsmithing to run that. The Autoplug is really meant for weapons that already run well. The CSS puck can help, but it is not a miracle worker. Yes, lose the rail system. What year is the Saiga 12? the two numbers in the serial number after the H are the year. ETA: Nevermind the year. It appears that you have an '11 or newer due to the 4 port arrangement if it came from the factory that way. Edited May 4, 2014 by evlblkwpnz 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jergoff 1 Posted May 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 (edited) It's one of the FIME group- Nevada ones. I have not re-profiled the hammer. Will do some reading up on that. I thought the FIME ones were supposed to be better tweaked versions, but I reckon not. I had planned on removing the rail and testing it today, but didn't get around to it. What's different about Win Universal (which is indeed what I bought)? I thought that it would be a good baseline for getting everything to cycle. (why do I always have to edit my posts to get paragraph spacing? it always runs together on first post) Edited May 4, 2014 by jergoff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
voonman 133 Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 throw the gun away..my saiga stopped working after 500 rounds Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gzus Kryst 53 Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Shot in the dark, but what dram are the shells? All the bulk packs in my area are 2 3/4 inch 23/4 dram 8 shot and have never shot it due to a cheaper price per round to get winchester super target 2/34 inch 3 dram 7 shot 25 round box(like $7 something after tax). I have a stock '11 on the 1 setting and the 3dram cycles it fine. Have read a few similar topics where simply changing from 23/4 to 3 dram solved the issue. might be a cheap solution to establishing your baseline Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 (edited) It's one of the FIME group- Nevada ones. I have not re-profiled the hammer. Will do some reading up on that. I thought the FIME ones were supposed to be better tweaked versions, but I reckon not. I had planned on removing the rail and testing it today, but didn't get around to it. What's different about Win Universal (which is indeed what I bought)? I thought that it would be a good baseline for getting everything to cycle. It isn't very consistent and it has very soft and easily deformed hulls. I like using it because it fouls things at a much slower rate than Federal Multi-purpose and there is usually some sitting on the shelves at Walmart when the Fed is out of stock. Universal is my choice baseline testing ammo, but it is not easy to make things run 100% with it, especially with 20 round drums. (why do I always have to edit my posts to get paragraph spacing? it always runs together on first post) evl.... ETA: Also, try it with the factory gas regulator on setting 2. Edited May 5, 2014 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 I'll leave this here. How many times do we need to say that shot size has no relation to shot power??? Weight and speed is all that matters. The others can take it from here. Hint #7, #8, OOB, and Slugs can be any where on that chart. Also brass height is irrelevant if your ammo is made after about 1950 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jergoff 1 Posted May 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 If that is Winchester Universal that you are using, you will likely need some degree of gunsmithing to run that. The Autoplug is really meant for weapons that already run well. The CSS puck can help, but it is not a miracle worker. Yes, lose the rail system. What year is the Saiga 12? the two numbers in the serial number after the H are the year. ETA: Nevermind the year. It appears that you have an '11 or newer due to the 4 port arrangement if it came from the factory that way. Do you mean port drilling or something else? throw the gun away..my saiga stopped working after 500 rounds Just stopped? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jergoff 1 Posted May 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 Shot in the dark, but what dram are the shells? All the bulk packs in my area are 2 3/4 inch 23/4 dram 8 shot and have never shot it due to a cheaper price per round to get winchester super target 2/34 inch 3 dram 7 shot 25 round box(like $7 something after tax). I have a stock '11 on the 1 setting and the 3dram cycles it fine. Have read a few similar topics where simply changing from 23/4 to 3 dram solved the issue. might be a cheap solution to establishing your baseline It's one of the FIME group- Nevada ones. I have not re-profiled the hammer. Will do some reading up on that. I thought the FIME ones were supposed to be better tweaked versions, but I reckon not. I had planned on removing the rail and testing it today, but didn't get around to it. What's different about Win Universal (which is indeed what I bought)? I thought that it would be a good baseline for getting everything to cycle. It isn't very consistent and it has very soft and easily deformed hulls. I like using it because it fouls things at a much slower rate than Federal Multi-purpose and there is usually some sitting on the shelves at Walmart when the Fed is out of stock. Universal is my choice baseline testing ammo, but it is not easy to make things run 100% with it, especially with 20 round drums. (why do I always have to edit my posts to get paragraph spacing? it always runs together on first post) evl.... ETA: Also, try it with the factory gas regulator on setting 2. Thanks for explaining. Will have to dig out old regulator and try it next time out testing. GF Dram Chart2.jpg I'll leave this here. How many times do we need to say that shot size has no relation to shot power??? Weight and speed is all that matters. The others can take it from here. Hint #7, #8, OOB, and Slugs can be any where on that chart. Also brass height is irrelevant if your ammo is made after about 1950 Thanks for the chart. Still learning -- saiga my first shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 That ammo is unlikely to run. It is very light (2 3/4 dr eq) with that weight of shot works out to 1145 FPS. Or to put it differently it is in the pink zone of the chart. Save it for the pump gun or be OK with having to manually cycle the action. If you put it on #1, then it won't even try to cycle stuff that light, so you won't be fiddling with partial ejections. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jergoff 1 Posted May 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) That ammo is unlikely to run. It is very light (2 3/4 dr eq) with that weight of shot works out to 1145 FPS. Or to put it differently it is in the pink zone of the chart. Save it for the pump gun or be OK with having to manually cycle the action. If you put it on #1, then it won't even try to cycle stuff that light, so you won't be fiddling with partial ejections. Ah, damn. I just bought 300 rounds of it for making sure this gun would cycle "anything". Maybe I can sell them off to a friend. So the DE needs to be at least 3 (other specs don't matter so much?). Am I understanding correctly? Would it be reasonable to expect DE 3 shells to cycle/eject flawlessly? Edited May 8, 2014 by jergoff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Generally speaking, that is true. Some will run 2 3/4 dr eq. Sadly the winchester bulk as sold at walmart seems to be erratic in power and a shade below stated spec. One of mine has been tuned to run most brands of ~2 3/4 dram eq ammo, but I would not say with confidence that it will run the winchester bulk stuff of that rating. Many race guns are tuned to run lighter ammo than that, but they have chosen to sacrifice reciol and durability with 3" magnums. (which would never be run in a race gun anyway) you could tune your gun to run the super light, but ultimately this is a small amount of ammo that can be quickly consumed or traded away. I wouldn't advise tuning your gun to run anything significantly weaker than winchester walmart bulk 3 dr eq, unless this is going to be a dedicated competition gun. You won't want that stuff anyway. Part of what you bought is a gun that can shoot full power ammo softer than the light loads in a pump or break action. And 3 dr eq is the standard trap load. It's still pretty light stuff. If you really want to run super light ammo some of the time but you don't want to give up the max 3" loads. For instance you plan to run a competition for a full day with only light to medium ammo... Then that is about the only situation where I would advocate putting in a reduced power recoil spring, and switching back to the full power when you get home. In general the soft springs are a bad idea because they affect lockup timing with the max ammo. (and usually the people who buy them have problems just bigger than the spring can "fix", so they still end up having to do the real cures which are almost free.) Remember- 3 friends and two cases of clay will do for a couple hundred rounds in an afternoon. I used to keep several bulk packs on hand just for surprise range trips with a carload of guys. If a couple of them have pump guns or over/unders, those will go quickly. Don't trade it off until you have tested. And hey next time you go trap shooting with your friends, instruct them to get a bulk pack of the right stuff and trade them. If they are running pumps or other fixed action guns they may appreciate the weenie loads. You'll find that the gun soaks up a lot of the recoil in the action so you won't mind the spicy stuff anyway. These guns like federal or remington better, and plenty of people run estate or herters too. The winchester AA is quality ammo though, so don't look down on all winchester products. Edited May 8, 2014 by GunFun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 That ammo is unlikely to run. It is very light (2 3/4 dr eq) with that weight of shot works out to 1145 FPS. Or to put it differently it is in the pink zone of the chart. Save it for the pump gun or be OK with having to manually cycle the action. If you put it on #1, then it won't even try to cycle stuff that light, so you won't be fiddling with partial ejections. Ah, damn. I just bought 300 rounds of it for making sure this gun would cycle "anything". Maybe I can sell them off to a friend. So the DE needs to be at least 3 (other specs don't matter so much?). Am I understanding correctly? Would it be reasonable to expect DE 3 shells to cycle/eject flawlessly? I have to use a CNC Warrior booster on my 6.5" SBS to cycle that "Light" marked stuff in sticks and drums reliably while the ammo with the "Universal" marked hulls does fine in stick mags, but requires the booster for drums. It is going to be challenging to make yours run with that, but it isn't impossible. You will need gas system work and a lot of action refinement all the way down into the FCG. I recommend seeing how it runs with Federal Multi-purpose in the meantime. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 yeah, the booster costs about the same as that ammo he is stuck with anyway, doesn't it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
burntpowder 23 Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 GF Dram Chart2.jpg This is a good chart to print out and put in your "gun room". I did a few years ago because I was seeing a few manufactures getting away from putting DRAM Equivalent on some lines of shell. I cannot blame them and let's face it, it is just an "equivalent" to the days of black powder loads. And as others have mentioned, Winchester appears to have a habit of inconsistently loading the "Universal" line (supposed to be 3-DRAM) below that spec. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 it isn't even really that.Anyone who understands it properly gets mad that it ever existed. It makes no sense for anything other than a benchmark for recoil and aproximate gas pressure impulse. Benelli tried to introduce a system which made mathmatical sense, but it never caught on. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gzus Kryst 53 Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 First off let me say I don't have the auto plug or a reprofile, but from what I have read on this forum people claim they can shoot the 23/4 dram ammo like that with the autoplug and a bolt trigger job like what cobra offers. But if you plan on going that route keep the ammo. Otherwise sell it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted May 9, 2014 Report Share Posted May 9, 2014 yeah, the booster costs about the same as that ammo he is stuck with anyway, doesn't it? The booster likely costs more, but I wasn't recommending the booster. I was merely making a testament to how difficult the task of making it run 100% with that specific ammo will probably be by sharing my own experience, nothing more. It's ok, I know how busy you are lately. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Molotov Cocktail 9 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Shot in the dark, but what dram are the shells? All the bulk packs in my area are 2 3/4 inch 23/4 dram 8 shot and have never shot it due to a cheaper price per round to get winchester super target 2/34 inch 3 dram 7 shot 25 round box(like $7 something after tax). I have a stock '11 on the 1 setting and the 3dram cycles it fine. Have read a few similar topics where simply changing from 23/4 to 3 dram solved the issue. might be a cheap solution to establishing your baseline It's one of the FIME group- Nevada ones. I have not re-profiled the hammer. Will do some reading up on that. I thought the FIME ones were supposed to be better tweaked versions, but I reckon not. I had planned on removing the rail and testing it today, but didn't get around to it. What's different about Win Universal (which is indeed what I bought)? I thought that it would be a good baseline for getting everything to cycle. It isn't very consistent and it has very soft and easily deformed hulls. I like using it because it fouls things at a much slower rate than Federal Multi-purpose and there is usually some sitting on the shelves at Walmart when the Fed is out of stock. Universal is my choice baseline testing ammo, but it is not easy to make things run 100% with it, especially with 20 round drums. (why do I always have to edit my posts to get paragraph spacing? it always runs together on first post) evl.... ETA: Also, try it with the factory gas regulator on setting 2. Thanks for explaining. Will have to dig out old regulator and try it next time out testing. GF Dram Chart2.jpg I'll leave this here. How many times do we need to say that shot size has no relation to shot power??? Weight and speed is all that matters. The others can take it from here. Hint #7, #8, OOB, and Slugs can be any where on that chart. Also brass height is irrelevant if your ammo is made after about 1950 Thanks for the chart. Still learning -- saiga my first shotgun. Mine shoots that just fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jergoff 1 Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 So...if I buy this stuff, it should cycle with my current setup? http://www.walmart.com/ip/Federal-Ammunition-12-Gauge-3-DRAM-100ct/17757345 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jergoff 1 Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Generally speaking, that is true. Some will run 2 3/4 dr eq. Sadly the winchester bulk as sold at walmart seems to be erratic in power and a shade below stated spec. One of mine has been tuned to run most brands of ~2 3/4 dram eq ammo, but I would not say with confidence that it will run the winchester bulk stuff of that rating. Many race guns are tuned to run lighter ammo than that, but they have chosen to sacrifice reciol and durability with 3" magnums. (which would never be run in a race gun anyway) you could tune your gun to run the super light, but ultimately this is a small amount of ammo that can be quickly consumed or traded away. I wouldn't advise tuning your gun to run anything significantly weaker than winchester walmart bulk 3 dr eq, unless this is going to be a dedicated competition gun. You won't want that stuff anyway. Part of what you bought is a gun that can shoot full power ammo softer than the light loads in a pump or break action. And 3 dr eq is the standard trap load. It's still pretty light stuff. If you really want to run super light ammo some of the time but you don't want to give up the max 3" loads. For instance you plan to run a competition for a full day with only light to medium ammo... Then that is about the only situation where I would advocate putting in a reduced power recoil spring, and switching back to the full power when you get home. In general the soft springs are a bad idea because they affect lockup timing with the max ammo. (and usually the people who buy them have problems just bigger than the spring can "fix", so they still end up having to do the real cures which are almost free.) Remember- 3 friends and two cases of clay will do for a couple hundred rounds in an afternoon. I used to keep several bulk packs on hand just for surprise range trips with a carload of guys. If a couple of them have pump guns or over/unders, those will go quickly. Don't trade it off until you have tested. And hey next time you go trap shooting with your friends, instruct them to get a bulk pack of the right stuff and trade them. If they are running pumps or other fixed action guns they may appreciate the weenie loads. You'll find that the gun soaks up a lot of the recoil in the action so you won't mind the spicy stuff anyway. These guns like federal or remington better, and plenty of people run estate or herters too. The winchester AA is quality ammo though, so don't look down on all winchester products. I'm no competitive shooter. I just do it for fun, but I also wanted this to be a SHTF gun that isn't going to choke up when I might really need it to work. I did test many of those Winchester shells. I had to hand cycle all of them. Of those, probably 90% didn't even attempt to cycle and the rest got jammed (not quite stovepiped) but snagged/crumpled between the chamber and bolt (plastic malformed due to the bolt trying to re-feed the empty shell). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Inspector 12 37 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 My Saiga is a four port gun too and I had originally thought the ports were pretty clear. While the gun was at JT Engineering for the "reliability service" (which sends the gun back to the owner guaranteed to run on Federal 3 dram loads) Jack found that the front gas block was shrouding on of the ports and preventing the gas system from functioning properly. He sized the gas block and then also sized the ports (they were not drilled to consistent diameters from the factory). Hammer was reprofiled, bolt and carrier massaged to allow loading a full mag on a closed bolt and the gun is functioning well. Check out the links on Gun Funs sig line. Lots of good info there to help you get your S 12 running Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cav01c14 4 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 I'd try a 1911 recoil spring I did everything you did and would still get stove pipes. I decided to try a new spring and that helped considerably. Have a bumpski and it will fire all 10rds without a hitch now. I have shot a few rounds of slugs and have not noticed any damage to the rear trunion. If that doesn't work I'm not sure what else to tell you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted May 14, 2014 Report Share Posted May 14, 2014 Winchester really sucks! It looks comparable on paper, but I assure you it's not. My stock vepr runs walmart federal 99% and wwb 25%. My saiga 030 even worse 1 out of 8rd mag, maybe 2. The s20 hates white box bulk, but loves super target? Same cost just gotta buy (4) boxes. I wanted what your wanting. True 100% reliability, and we'll the more firearms I buy, the more realistic stance I take. No gun is 100% reliable. 99.99999% to all the guys squirming in there seats to brag about there gun. Feeding a sharp square faced cylindrical ammo from a box mag really is magical(when it works). I spent a tremendous amount of fiddling to get Winchester to run in my old test mule saiga 12, chamfered the chamber, beveling the barrel hood, etc. But I now just choose to not to buy it at all. Don't get bumbed because of shitty ammo! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gzus Kryst 53 Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Yes it should shoot that federal you linked its a 3 dram and 1 1/8 oz that should have 1200 fps and enough gusto to cycle it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jergoff 1 Posted May 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Finally got to shoot the Federal 3 dram and they all stovepiped. Time to start doing some work on this thing I reckon. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 yep. Sort out the simple friction and hammer and work your way forward. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lvjeffro 30 Posted June 20, 2014 Report Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) My Saiga is a four port gun too and I had originally thought the ports were pretty clear. While the gun was at JT Engineering for the "reliability service" (which sends the gun back to the owner guaranteed to run on Federal 3 dram loads) Jack found that the front gas block was shrouding on of the ports and preventing the gas system from functioning properly. He sized the gas block and then also sized the ports (they were not drilled to consistent diameters from the factory). Hammer was reprofiled, bolt and carrier massaged to allow loading a full mag on a closed bolt and the gun is functioning well. Check out the links on Gun Funs sig line. Lots of good info there to help you get your S 12 running Lucky you, Edited June 20, 2014 by lvjeffro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fitty% 808 Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Winchester 2.75" 8 shot bulk pack will not cycle with auto plug screw clamped all the way down. Mags tried: SGM 12 round, MD arms 20 drum Remaining ideas to try today: Remove rail from gas tube Anything else? If thats the rail you have then my suggestion would be to throw it away. It clamps down in the gas tube creating friction on the op-rod and causes FTEs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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