Wagnikov 186 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 We'll you can put a bandaid on OR not stab youself with a knife? Mmmmm. Jk the issue is, all the mechanicals have already taken a beating by the time the buffer gets a chance to work. All it protects is rear trunnion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 The V12 has a modified rifle RSB.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 The V12 has a modified rifle RSB.... Agree. A rifles piston is is also the operating rod. So there is never a point at which two objects are accelerating at the same rate and one must stop, and the other continues. "soft" gas pushes on the piston shoving the carrier back until the piston uncovers the ports and relieves the excess gas pressure. There is no gas venting on a shotgun puck, there is no pressure release. Energy is neither created or "destroyed" so that energy went somewhere. And that somewhere, I conclude, is into the gas tube that retains it and thus into the rsb that retains that. Some say that force is negligible.i say for those with 6 position gas plug on there saiga set to run bird, with changing the setting pump out a mag of 3" slugs. Then tell me there is no extra! It's may be a " barrel to big" issue but it's curious to me this weld comes out of nowhere also with a new way of capturing the puck? All I was saying. It may be negligible, but my testing has proven to the contrary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 A rifle RSB will not fit on a 12ga barrel, so they remove the band and weld it to the trunnion. If they made a proprietary shotgun RSB like that, it would be interference fit and pinned, not welded. It has nothing to do with the force of the puck. Think of it like a business might.... Option 1: - cut the band off of existing rifle RSBs (pay someone to cut and grind existing parts) these are probably out of spec for use on their rifles, so factor in the potential to re-purpose otherwise useless parts - weld RSB to trunnion (pay someone to insert it into a jig and make two welds, use welding materials) - use existing RPK handguard Option 2 - manufacture proprietary shotgun RSB (develop, set up machinery and tooling, create a process, devote manpower and machinery to making shotgun only RSBs) - machine a seat for RSB on barrel (more cutting for each barrel, more tooling costs, more potential for loss of product, less production) - press RSB onto barrel (more pressing, another jig, more manpower) - drill RSB and barrel (more drilling for each barrel, more potential for loss of product) - pin RSB to barrel (more pin material, more time and equipment devoted) - manufacture proprietary handguard to clear the band (develop, make molds, set up equipment, create a process, devote manpower, material, and molds to making shotgun only handguards) If it were my business.... I'll have a number one, chopped and welded Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 Makes sense. Both plants came to the same conclusion. So did Izhmash make a bigger caliber than 308? If not when I get home I can verify what you're saying on the izzy side, as I just picked up a .308 on Saturday. If all holds true it should have the same trunnion as the saiga 030 military version correct? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 Dinzag does or did the same with his RSB setups for the s12 before the 030's were being imported. Modified rifle RSB welded to the iz109 gas tube sight block. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 That guys IS the real deal, and one of the Saiga Godfathers! Dinzag does or did the same with his RSB setups for the s12 before the 030's were being imported. Modified rifle RSB welded to the iz109 gas tube sight block. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 (edited) That guys IS the real deal, and one of the Saiga Godfathers!Definitely. Edited May 27, 2014 by Mullet Man Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 I don't care to make this a 4page topic. However I still maintain there are new dynamics involved on the Vepr 12 not present on any other ak platform(by their admission it is a new gas system) . With any new design there are new advantages and new disadvantages. This puck ramming the end of the gas tube and sending that "unknown" amount of force down through the gun, is new. It may never surface as a design flaw. But this does in fact happen. I hold to that. The when, where, why, and how the rsb is welded was always up for discussion, as I never intended to know conclusively only proposed reasons why. Thanks for the responses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 If you dont think its a big deal, whoopty -F'ing doo. It's still BULLSH** that a brand new $900 gun cracked after 10rds, I don't care if its structural or not. If anyone lives in Georgia let me know, I'll crack your sight base welds for free and give it back to you since its no big deal. Seriously, put your money where your mouth is and I'll crack yours since you're telling me its no big deal and "just shoot it". PM me and we'll work it out. I'll be waiting for any takers on that. My sight base has already been re-welded and the guy did a great job. Hopefully this will take care of the problem, I'll post back with some pics and if it cracks again I love in Georgia and I'd totally let you crack my weld but I don't think your man enough. Too much whining. Id hold to the fact that I'd still shoot the gun. I only Fox shit when it's broken and if you aren't having any problems it's not broken. I can see on my weld that they pulled out a little early in the middle and the weld isn't complete does that mean I should have someone reweld it? No it means I don't give a fuck. And as far as the puck hitting the gas tube,it definitely has to be stopped by something and it would have to be the gas tube. How much force who knows but I'll bet it's not enough to crack welds the sheet metal gas tube would start to deform first. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jabara572 3 Posted May 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 The OP claimed that the sky was falling because he had a cracked weld on his new gun. While disappointing to be sure, it is not the end of the world. It was a simple crack in the middle of a weld that cracked when it cooled. He proved it when he ground it out only to find that it got smaller as he ground and it was contained in the weld itself. A simple fix. Personally, I'd have kept shooting it and never given it another thought as it wasn't going anywhere. imop I was ready to be done with this thread, but not if you keep repeating this lie over and over. It was NOT limited just to the weld, you are completely wrong about how my gun was cracked, so why would anyone listed to anything else you have to say about it? You're either spreading lies on purpose or cant read, and either one doesnt look good for you. You either cant read what I posted, or you are purposely spreading lies about my situation, for what purpose I have no idea...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gozuki 3 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 Chill out. No need to start calling anyone a liar. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jabara572 3 Posted May 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 I don't care to make this a 4page topic. However I still maintain there are new dynamics involved on the Vepr 12 not present on any other ak platform(by their admission it is a new gas system) . With any new design there are new advantages and new disadvantages. This puck ramming the end of the gas tube and sending that "unknown" amount of force down through the gun, is new. It may never surface as a design flaw. But this does in fact happen. I hold to that. The when, where, why, and how the rsb is welded was always up for discussion, as I never intended to know conclusively only proposed reasons why. Thanks for the responses. I would agree with you, obviously the puck is stopped by the end of the gas tube, if force is applied to the end of the gas tube, then that force is also applied to the RSB/Trunnion. Someone cant just claim these forces are negligible because they feel like it. You and I have been saying mostly the same thing all along, Russians wouldn't weld something if they didn't have to. It was important enough for Molot and Izmash to pay some factory worker to sit there and weld up every single Vepr/Saiga with this gas system when almost no other Russian small arm has welds.... that should tip us off right there. Evlblkwpnz summed it up very nicely. The only question is whether the RSB is pinned to the barrel like the WPA tech told me, or if it is simply welded to the trunnion. Again the Russian simplicity/economic rule applies, why weld something they dont have to. If it really is pinned to the barrel....then I dont see what welding it would add. Logic would say there is some important part the welds play in the Vepr 12 system, you can argue about what that exact role is, but they were put there for a purpose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gozuki 3 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 With 10 rounds through this gun, this is not a fatigue failure. IMO, this is a weld shrinkage crack. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jabara572 3 Posted May 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 Chill out. No need to start calling anyone a liar. If rockmup keeps spreading a lie that my crack was weld only when it clearly was not as I have stated repeatedly.... then I will continue to point out that he is spreading said lie, simple as that. Ask him why he is doing it, I sure as hell have no idea. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rockmup 12 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 The OP claimed that the sky was falling because he had a cracked weld on his new gun. While disappointing to be sure, it is not the end of the world. It was a simple crack in the middle of a weld that cracked when it cooled. He proved it when he ground it out only to find that it got smaller as he ground and it was contained in the weld itself. A simple fix. Personally, I'd have kept shooting it and never given it another thought as it wasn't going anywhere. imop I was ready to be done with this thread, but not if you keep repeating this lie over and over. It was NOT limited just to the weld, you are completely wrong about how my gun was cracked, so why would anyone listed to anything else you have to say about it? You're either spreading lies on purpose or cant read, and either one doesnt look good for you. You either cant read what I posted, or you are purposely spreading lies about my situation, for what purpose I have no idea...... Are you supposed to be medicated ? Better up your dose because its not working for you. I made an observation and gave a statement and you get butt hurt. I was being nice. You are clearly a retard. I didn't miss read what you wrote, I laughed at you. If you put half the energy you spend crying about your catastrophic failure of your new gun into getting a clue about what you're looking and understanding how it works you'd be much better off. Look at your own pics that you posted. That cracked as it cooled Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 In the words of joe dirt (as the top of the rv septic tank is knocked off and poop is squishing out everywhere) "ewe, how much is is there, is it ever going to stop" lmao Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jabara572 3 Posted May 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 (edited) The OP claimed that the sky was falling because he had a cracked weld on his new gun. While disappointing to be sure, it is not the end of the world. It was a simple crack in the middle of a weld that cracked when it cooled. He proved it when he ground it out only to find that it got smaller as he ground and it was contained in the weld itself. A simple fix. Personally, I'd have kept shooting it and never given it another thought as it wasn't going anywhere. imop I was ready to be done with this thread, but not if you keep repeating this lie over and over. It was NOT limited just to the weld, you are completely wrong about how my gun was cracked, so why would anyone listed to anything else you have to say about it? You're either spreading lies on purpose or cant read, and either one doesnt look good for you. You either cant read what I posted, or you are purposely spreading lies about my situation, for what purpose I have no idea...... Are you supposed to be medicated ? Better up your dose because its not working for you. I made an observation and gave a statement and you get butt hurt. I was being nice. You are clearly a retard. I didn't miss read what you wrote, I laughed at you. If you put half the energy you spend crying about your catastrophic failure of your new gun into getting a clue about what you're looking and understanding how it works you'd be much better off. Look at your own pics that you posted. That cracked as it cooled .....Calling me a retard now rockmup? A true sign of intelligence..... ....well look, I'm only an engineer who looks at cracks all day for a living.... If you look at that picture you can see its ground down through the weld and into the base metal......crack is still there... (that means you are wrong btw).... You can keep claiming otherwise but, it doesnt make you any more correct. (edited to add, I never said this weld didnt crack on cooling vs fatigue...it probably did crack on cooling...where that argument came from I have no idea.... Just because it cracked on cooling has nothing to do with how deep it cracked... if you looked at enough cracked welds you would know that too) See I can explain myself with facts and photos, without telling you to go get medicated or that you are a retard. If you feel like having an actual conversation about it let me know, but I am not going to descend to your level. In the end, it sucks that I got a cracked $900 gun, but I didnt whine to WPA to give me a new one, I didnt go around trashing VEPR's or WPA on the net, hell I didnt even ask WPA to fix it. I fixed it on my own time and my own dime and love it once again. Maybe thanks to this thread, somebody buying a new one notices a crack like this before they purchase it and saves themselves the hassle of getting it fixed/returning it. Maybe WPA/Molot changes their design or changes their weld technique to prevent this Edited May 27, 2014 by jabara572 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rockmup 12 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 The OP claimed that the sky was falling because he had a cracked weld on his new gun. While disappointing to be sure, it is not the end of the world. It was a simple crack in the middle of a weld that cracked when it cooled. He proved it when he ground it out only to find that it got smaller as he ground and it was contained in the weld itself. A simple fix. Personally, I'd have kept shooting it and never given it another thought as it wasn't going anywhere. imop I was ready to be done with this thread, but not if you keep repeating this lie over and over. It was NOT limited just to the weld, you are completely wrong about how my gun was cracked, so why would anyone listed to anything else you have to say about it? You're either spreading lies on purpose or cant read, and either one doesnt look good for you. You either cant read what I posted, or you are purposely spreading lies about my situation, for what purpose I have no idea...... Are you supposed to be medicated ? Better up your dose because its not working for you. I made an observation and gave a statement and you get butt hurt. I was being nice. You are clearly a retard. I didn't miss read what you wrote, I laughed at you. If you put half the energy you spend crying about your catastrophic failure of your new gun into getting a clue about what you're looking and understanding how it works you'd be much better off. Look at your own pics that you posted. That cracked as it cooled .....Calling me a retard now rockmup? A true sign of intelligence..... ....well look, I'm only an engineer who looks at cracks all day for a living.... If you look at that picture you can see its ground down through the weld and into the base metal......crack is still there... (that means you are wrong btw).... You can keep claiming otherwise but, it doesnt make you any more correct. See I can explain myself with facts and photos, without telling you to go get medicated or that you are a retard. If you feel like having an actual conversation about it let me know, but I am not going to descend to your level. In the end, it sucks that I got a cracked $900 gun, but I didnt whine to WPA to give me a new one, I didnt go around trashing VEPR's or WPA on the net, hell I didnt even ask WPA to fix it. I fixed it on my own time and my own dime and love it once again. Maybe thanks to this thread, somebody buying a new one notices a crack like this before they purchase it and saves themselves the hassle of getting it fixed/returning it. Maybe WPA/Molot changes their design or changes their weld technique to prevent this No, you just insisted that I was lying. Not once but twice. Coming from an engineer, which explains it all, your employer should cut your pay. if you look at cracks all day and can't tell what you're looking at in your own pics then you must suck at your day job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 (edited) How can it be pinned to the barrel? Seems pretty obvious to me by actually looking at it, that it is welded to the trunnion, on both sides (mine happen to be absolutely gorgeous welds btw). But not only is it welded on both sides of the trunnion, it also is in key ways (T shaped channels) on both sides of the trunnion. Disassemble your V12 and have a look from the chamber side. Also the puck side of the gas tube is beefed up to obviously take some beating from the puck. However I would bet my left nut that the majority of energy is dissipated due to the carrier contact, by the time contact is made there. I'm in the camp of the puck following the carrier til stopped by the tube, not blunt force collision with the tube. Edited May 27, 2014 by Mullet Man Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jabara572 3 Posted May 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 How can it be pinned to the barrel? Seems pretty obvious to me by actually looking at it, that it is welded to the trunnion, on both sides (mine happen to be absolutely gorgeous welds btw). But not only is it welded on both sides of the trunnion, it also is in key ways (T shaped channels) on both sides of the trunnion. Disassemble your V12 and have a look from the chamber side. Also the puck side of the gas tube is beefed up to obviously take some beating from the puck. However I would bet my left nut that the majority of energy is dissipated by the time contact is made there, I don't think it is pinned either.... but that is why the WPA tech told me. I think i posted their reports a (long) ways back, but I can dig it up if needed. I pointed out the T shaped channels myself earlier in the thread, I think it just fits in those channels and welded on each side. I forgot, if you look at the RSB where it fits into the channel, it is possible that there is an extended part of the RSB that extends to where the barrels pins to the trunnion. It would be possible to pin it that way, but again... i dont think that is the case. We need someone to find a pic of an un-installed RSB or trunnion to know for sure Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 (edited) Yeah I don't believe its a press or interference fit either but it could be. My guess is they are just snug guides for placement and alignment then secured by welding to the trunnion. The only way it could be pinned to the barrel would be to have bosses on the RSB that share the barrel pin with the trunnion. I don't see any evidence of that. Looking into it from the chamber side, the barrel pin is too low for that to be possible. Edited May 27, 2014 by Mullet Man Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 Also the puck side of the gas tube is beefed up to obviously take some beating from the puck. Hmmm what was once absurd, is now obvious? Lol jk I'm not going to reread, and I don't know who said what at this point. But I sit back in astonishment at the topics that take-off and ones that sit idle? I op gun is fixed, he took full man-it-up responsibility. We all got a little pissy. But in the end "good game!" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 How are you guys figuring the "barrel pin" doesn't intersect the rsb? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 How are you guys figuring the "barrel pin" doesn't intersect the rsb? I didn't say it didn't intersect it, I said its to low to be pinned by it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jabara572 3 Posted May 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 It could be that all the pin does is sit in a little half moon cutout and prevent the rsb from sliding in its T channel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 Also the puck side of the gas tube is beefed up to obviously take some beating from the puck. Hmmm what was once absurd, is now obvious? Lol jk I'm not going to reread, and I don't know who said what at this point. But I sit back in astonishment at the topics that take-off and ones that sit idle? I op gun is fixed, he took full man-it-up responsibility. We all got a little pissy. But in the end "good game!" That's just what I say. But like I said, I still believe the majority of energy, the energy some want to say is too much for the cracked weld and potentially catastrophic, is basically mitigated after contact with the carrier/oprod and that the puck follows or rides the oprod into the gas tube. I'm not an engineer so I obviously don't know much of anything. It could be that all the pin does is sit in a little half moon cutout and prevent the rsb from sliding in its T channel could be at which point the welds would be redundant. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 Also the puck side of the gas tube is beefed up to obviously take some beating from the puck. Hmmm what was once absurd, is now obvious? Lol jk I'm not going to reread, and I don't know who said what at this point. But I sit back in astonishment at the topics that take-off and ones that sit idle? I op gun is fixed, he took full man-it-up responsibility. We all got a little pissy. But in the end "good game!" That's just what I say. But like I said, I still believe the majority of energy, the energy some want to say is too much for the cracked weld and potentially catastrophic, is basically mitigated after contact with the carrier/oprod and that the puck follows or rides the oprod into the gas tube. I'm not an engineer so I obviously don't know much of anything. If imgur would frwaking load I would explain more! I have some vids to show you guys. They will be posted on selectable gas system. There are certain things like the wind, that are hard to see and understand. But you can study the effects, and learn much. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Photobucket ftw Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted May 29, 2014 Report Share Posted May 29, 2014 Photobucket ftwGood looking out!Vids are posted on selectable gas system Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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