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922-R With Extended Mags


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Hi-

 

Im trying to understand the 922-R laws. First off I dont plan on breaking the weld on the stock to make it fold. A folding stock on a shotgun is strictly prohibited in my state. So it wouldnt be 922-r I would have to worry about, id be in violation of state law period 922-r complaint or not. So it will remain a "fixed" tubular stock. However what im worried about is using my SGM 10 round mags. Apparently as soon as you use any mag higher than 5 rounds its not "sporting" and thus is subject to 922-r. But thing is the only mags im going to be using that are imported 5 rounders. I love the looks of the imported 8 and 10 rounders but im not going to fork out that kind of money for those. I would just buy a bunch of 5 rounders instead. But the SGM are alright so any extended mags I have will be US made and thus 3 922-r complaint parts. Im adding a GK-01 US made clone muzzlebrake by CSS ( can have muzzle brakes but no flash hiders under state law on a shotgun). Also, im getting a SGM modified thread on choke with threads for a muzzle attachment. Wonder if the US made choke could be considered a "barrel extension"? Also adding a US made rear sight, dont know if that counts? Ive heard the ATF says its okay to have imported extended mags as long as you have or own a US made one to put it in compliance. I wonder if the same could be said if you have the 5 round mags with your US made 10 or 12 rounders to putting it back into "sporting configuration"? I also think I read also on another forum where someone contacted the ATF and asked and they said the higher cap mags are fine as its not "assembly" or "manufacture" but was unclear on un welding the stock. Seems though 922-R is more of a law imposed on importers and distributors down to the sellers. Seems like it dosent as apply as much for the end user unless you "assembling" a rifle from a parts kit or something like that. But of course what if they change their mind and decide to crack down hard on gun owners and stretch the definition of 922-r? Using a US magazine (3 compliant parts),US muzzle brake, a US choke, and rear sight, how far away am I from being compliant. If I retain the 5 round mags and never get rid of them, do I really need to worry about this?

 

Thanks

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My understanding is muzzle stuff don't count with the vepr.

 

If the feds are looking to get you 922r is the least of your worries and I doubt anyone would ever ask about it unless the gun was used against another person or in a crime.

 

 If you are worried about being 922r compliant with your us made mags then just get a us made trigger group a gas puck and your us mags and you are good to go < I think I got it covered > so for 100 bucks you dont have to worry. Or you can save the 100 and worry about something that will probably never happen. 

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If the feds are looking to get you 922r is the least of your worries and I doubt anyone would ever ask about it unless the gun was used against another person or in a crime.

 

Or you can save the 100 and worry about something that will probably never happen. 

 

I set up all my imported firearms to be compliant just for this scenario.  In the event of having to defend myself I don't want the worry of using a non compliant build.  Consider the hundred dollars as piece of mind insurance.

 

I see this advice given out more and more on this forum.  It's naive to think that just because the feds haven't prosecuted anyone for 922r that they never will.  I sure won't be the first, nor will I be taking advice from anyone who's removed from any consequences of my decisions. 

 

Some answers to the OP's questions...

  • The mag that matters is the one in your gun.  Don't change any parts and add a foreign 10 rounder and you are out of compliance.  It doesn't matter if you have a 5 rounder in your closet.
  • When it comes to shotties, what's attached at the end of the barrel doesn't matter.  The ATF doesn't count a muzzle attachment, period.
  • The rear sight is not a countable part. 

From what I read you really need to research what parts count and what don't.  You are onto something when you mention the possibility of the feds one day using 922r as a way to crack down on gun owners.  The law is already on the books.  All it takes is some political will and a strong arm to make it happen. 

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All they need is the media to start reporting on imported weapons slamfiring and malfunctioning. Especially if someone gets hurt. Then it will become a "crisis" as usual and a drastic government response will ensue like always due to "dangerous" imported weapons not subject to the same quality control and regulations as domestic made products. The media will capitalize on a isolated incident and make it a nation wide crisis. Then it could possibly lead to conviscation or prosecution of those who arent 922-R complaint to get those guns out of peoples hands that could jump up by themselves and shoot people due to malfunction. So right now 922-r is not a big deal probably but it could be an very useful tool to the Anti's as its already on the books.

 

Apparently, the ATF let the pistol grip slide on these imports. Now that they are imported they could easily turn around and change their mind and say it needs to be 922-r compliant because of the pistol grip. Seems to me 922-r is an importation law placed on importers and distributors. But I guess they can apply it to the end consumer even so. I dont consider extended mags a "modification" but they might as you need them for the weapon to function unless you use it as a single shot.

Edited by asdaven
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You took my post out of context

 

  I did not advise him to do anything I listed the 2 options 1 save 100 bucks 2 save yourself a trip to the poky <or a fine> I personally added the parts to my gun because to me its not worth the hassle of not doing it and getting caught for the price of 100 rounds of ammo. somewhere down the line I am sure it could end up costing you your rights to use firearms as in a felony. That does not mean i don't think you have a better chance at hitting the lotto 2x than you do of ever being confronted about 922r

 

 

 

If the feds are looking to get you 922r is the least of your worries and I doubt anyone would ever ask about it unless the gun was used against another person or in a crime.

 

Or you can save the 100 and worry about something that will probably never happen. 

 

I set up all my imported firearms to be compliant just for this scenario.  In the event of having to defend myself I don't want the worry of using a non compliant build.  Consider the hundred dollars as piece of mind insurance.

 

I see this advice given out more and more on this forum.  It's naive to think that just because the feds haven't prosecuted anyone for 922r that they never will.  I sure won't be the first, nor will I be taking advice from anyone who's removed from any consequences of my decisions. 

 

Some answers to the OP's questions...

  • The mag that matters is the one in your gun.  Don't change any parts and add a foreign 10 rounder and you are out of compliance.  It doesn't matter if you have a 5 rounder in your closet.
  • When it comes to shotties, what's attached at the end of the barrel doesn't matter.  The ATF doesn't count a muzzle attachment, period.
  • The rear sight is not a countable part. 

From what I read you really need to research what parts count and what don't.  You are onto something when you mention the possibility of the feds one day using 922r as a way to crack down on gun owners.  The law is already on the books.  All it takes is some political will and a strong arm to make it happen. 

 

Edited by ShadyVepr
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Hmm so how much do I have to change? I like the pistol grip and handguards and stuff. I like the trigger. Kinda hate to change that and go from a two stage to a single stage modified Tapco. Gas puck provided its good quality and original or better function, I can do that. The only magazines over 5 rounds im going to use are US made. That's 3 parts. I think its a total of 5 or 6 imported parts that needs to be changed out. The VEPR also adds a pistol grip over the stock Saiga. I can find a lot on 922-r and Saiga 12s but not much on the VEPR 12.

 

Too bad they dont just make US made copies of the factory stuff and stamp US on it.

 

Thanks

Edited by asdaven
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Search is your friend.

A lot of new to Vepr 12 owners ask about 922r.

It's about foreign parts count, and specific parts are named to be counted.

This was posted by Sharky a while back in a discussion:

 

Although it seems backwards, you should never go by a count of the US parts. Based on 922r the BATF will not count US parts, only the number of imported parts. Look at the list of 922r countable parts and count how many foreign parts from the list are on your rifle. If 10 or less you are good to go no matter how many US parts are on on it.

 

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph © of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

 

Paragraph © defines the following parts as "countable" under the law:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings *

(2) Barrels *

(3) Barrel extensions

(4) Mounting blocks (trunions) *

(5) Muzzle attachments *

(6) Bolts *

(7) Bolt carriers *

(8) Operating rods

(9) Gas pistons *

(10) Trigger housings

(11) Triggers *

(12) Hammers *

(13) Sears

(14) Disconnectors *

(15) Buttstocks *

(16) Pistol grips *

(17) Forearms, handguards *

(18) Magazine bodies *

(19) Followers *

(20) Floorplates *

Edited by Mr.BlahX3
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"Readily adaptable for sporting purposes", thats why I question if using a hi cap mag alone triggers 922-R. I understand shotguns have different rules than rifles. My question falls more under what takes the shotgun out of "sporting" configuration. I did add a US made clone of the GK-01 Muzzle Brake. Would that make it non sporting? Or can I still use 5 round mags and it remain sporting provided the stock remain welded? And use the 3 parts when using higher cap mags using US mags only when going over 5 round capacity?

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as posted at least 2 times above your us muzzle has nothing to do with 922r. All the info is there if you want to be 922r compliant you have to change nothing or change out 5 points of non us parts with us made parts that came on the gun.

 

 If you don't want to change the parts that have to be changed then be happy with your 5 round mags. If you want to go to bigger mags then you have to change other parts of the gun to stay compliant. It is very cut and dry. If you want to mod the gun and are afraid of not being compliant then just change out the parts It will cost 100 bucks and take an hour at the MOST to swap them.

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as posted at least 2 times above your us muzzle has nothing to do with 922r. All the info is there if you want to be 922r compliant you have to change nothing or change out 5 points of non us parts with us made parts that came on the gun.

 

If you don't want to change the parts that have to be changed then be happy with your 5 round mags. If you want to go to bigger mags then you have to change other parts of the gun to stay compliant. It is very cut and dry. If you want to mod the gun and are afraid of not being compliant then just change out the parts It will cost 100 bucks and take an hour at the MOST to swap them.

I realize that as far as parts count that the muzzle dosent matter. But im talking about as keeping it under the sporting purposes definition and not subject to 922-r provided a 5 round mag is used. But for anything higher cap, I would use exclusively US made mags. Then change the trigger group which should get the imported parts count down to 10. I understand the VEPR 12 is 16 imported parts and the US mag and Trigger would be 3 and 3 in parts so down to 10 imported parts. But my question is mainly when I go back to using the imported 5 round mags, is the muzzle brake going to make it subject to 922-r in that case? Thats what im getting at. I get that its no more than 10 imported parts from the 20 part list. And the muzzle isnt counted for shotgun and if It was its US made anyhow.

 

Thanks

Edited by asdaven
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Alright so I have a CSS modified G2 Trigger Group, a CSS Gas Puck, and a MD Arms Molot Grip on order. Will this get me in compliance? It seems like this is what most people do for 922-r. But I feel im 1 part short to get it down to 10 imported parts. Technically I would be more than fine using my US made magazines. But when I use my 5 round Russian Mags is what im concerned about. Because it might not be considered "sporting" anymore since I added the muzzle brake although its US made.

Thanks

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, I installed the CSS mod G2 Trigger Grip, CSS Gas Puck, and MD Arms Molot Style Grip. My muzzle brake is a CSS as well (GK-01). Other than the gas puck, these have all turned out to be upgrades rather than just uping the US parts count. The CSS G2 Trigger Group is way better than the G2 in my AK rifle. Don't know why but its awesome over stock! Thought I was content with the stock trigger. The Gas Puck is nicely made but I don't know if theyres any difference over the stock piece. Just looked slightly more refined over stock and the grooves are a slightly different size than the stock piece. Don't know if this will make any difference in operation. The MD Arms Grip, although the same profile as the stock one, it has a matte non-rubbery grippy finish over the gloss plastic of the factory one. Profile and shape is the same though. The color is a little lighter. But, I like it over the factory grip with the gloss finish other than it dosen't have the Molot factory logo on it. So, happy with all that. Only thing is am I going to be compliant to run factory mags? My only factory mags right now are 5 round. The 10 rounders I have are all SGM.

 

Added a Keltec SU-16B Aluminum Rear Peep Sight to the rail. It sits a little low and in fact, I had to remove the rear sight and install a pin through the holes of the sight base to hold the leaf spring down. I was more concerned about getting something too high and I ended up with something that sits slightly too low. Any suggestions? The sight picture is beautiful and it was only a $25 sight and has windage adjustment. It works but I have to get into a particular position to line up the sights with the cheek rest on the stock and stuff. If I don't use the cheek rest, then I cant get a good cheek weld.

 

Thanks-

Edited by asdaven
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