Jump to content

First post... first steps?


Recommended Posts

Hi, guys. I'm the happy new owner of a spankin' new Saiga 12 (unmodified). I'm new to Saigas, but not new to firearms (may I invite you to check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/FerrariSteveJenkins)

 

I've read bunches of posts here (particularly the pinned ones), watched a few conversion videos, and feel confident that I'll be able to manage a DIY conversion. I haven't fired my Saiga 12 yet, but my plan is as follows:

 

1) Field strip, clean, and lube new gun. I use FrogLube, and from what I've read so far, there don't seem to be any negative issues with FL + Saiga 12.

 

2) Pray to the ghost of Mikhail Gorbachev that I didn't get a Vodka special. Huh? Gorbachev is still alive? Damn... ok, then I'll just cross my fingers and hope.

 

3) Put a few different types of loads through gun, taking note of feed/ejection success rate for each.

 

4) Based on the results above, follow different procedures (as necessary) to address particular feed/ejection performance issues.

 

5) Perform conversion and make my gun uniquely bad-ass.

 

Any further recommendations for this enthusiastic n00b?

Edited by Ferrari Steve
Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome!

Your Post should be stickied for future newbies. I cant tell you how many conversions people here have tried to fix with never test firing the shotgun before a conversion!!

 

It sounds like you did our research which is commendable. Since you are going to field strip it I would add that you pull your plug and poke around in your gas chamber and see if it has gas ports. It'lll save you a trip to the range. I have a 18" thats been sitting in the safe with not 1 gas port. Its a future projectfor me, but you never know.

 

Good luck and have fun giggling your ass off when you dump your first large mag!!!!! And take friends so you all can get a good laugh!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, I plan on doing the "bolt drop test" as I'm stripping the gun initially.

 

One more n00b question: I've read some reports of owners marring the interior of the receiver of their gun, and notice that some owners swear by using a recoil buffer to avoid this.

 

In general, I don't like to add anything to a gun before at least test firing a few rounds, and so I'm a bit dubious. But since I'm new to Saigas (but not to AKs - I have a Polytech AK47 that runs like a champ), I supposed I'm open to believing anything.

 

Any merit to running a recoil buffer during the initial firing tests?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would avoid a recoil buffer on the initial firing test to see how the gun runs.  They are notorious for causing cycling issues.  Once you know the gun runs well is the time to see if a buffer will work.  I personally use one on mine and it runs well.  Other's have issues with them.

 

Make sure your gas plug is set correctly and you shouldn't have an issue with damage to the trunnion.  I only use one because I'm forgetful like that.

 

Welcome to the forums!

Link to post
Share on other sites

 I use 00 buck and slugs to break it in. Alot of guys here will just polish everything first but I like to see what is wearing and where. I wouldnt worry about the buffer. Its supposed to be military grade and i would assume buck and slugs is what they would be using all the time. Most target and bird shot generally wont fully cycle the average new saiga.

Edited by utahhandyman
Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to throw it out there as "another thought".... Make sure your gun is legal to fire with whatever magazine you're using in its sporterized state. Starting with the Izzy 5 rounder seems to be the best choice.

 

In response to #2: Mikhail Kalashnikov HAS passed away. A prayer wouldn't hurt! :)

 

Enjoy your new shotgun!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Uhm. You've already gotten some lame advice above.

 

Don't waste money and ammo to compress springs. Work the action by hand a hundred times and the spring is broken in. 100 cheap loads will do it too. The spring won't know that you spent $100 on buckshot, so don't. Unless you just want to shoot some buckshot. That's cool.

You can slick up the rails more consistently with a little bit of sand paper than 1000 rounds of amm.

 

As for buffers- Only some guns have problems with them- guns that either are barely operational or guns that are so hot they bounce off the trunion. I keep one in one of my guns, simply as cheap insurance against people putting the wrong ammo in it. It isn't necessary, but it doesn't hurt anything. I shaved it a little thinner and it's probably had a few thousand rounds through since I got it with no signs of wear yet. - It's the tough blue blackjack brand one. I think the hard plastic type would probably break after a while. But the real issue is you want your gas system tuned to the ammo. If your carrier is smacking the back trunion hard, you need a more restrictive gas setting. Either get a multi stage plug or an autoplug to tune the gas to the ammo.

 

It isn't the size of the shot that matters for cycling it's the total power of the shell. To find that out, all you need to know is the weight of ejecta, and the velocity. It's the same whether it is hundreds of tiny #7.5 pellets, 9 OOB, or one big slug, an ounce and an eigth at 1200 FPS or faster should run  on setting #2. (The standard trap load.) If it doesn't you have a little bit of work to do. 

 

This chart will help you: Note the colored zones, and do all your function testing with ammo in the red baseline window. A healthy S12 will run everything in the green window without fail, every time. Some S12s may be able to run a few of the loads at the more potend end of the pink window, but each load will need to be verified. The baseline is the standard trap/ grouse load so this should suit you well. 

 

post-17871-0-35719800-1402434735_thumb.jpg

p.s. 9 pellets of OO buck is 1 1/8 oz (if they aren't undersized, which is common) Standard velocity for this is 1325 FPS, LE and tactical loads are way weaker. Some are even weaker than the regulation trap load. 1150 FPS is common for reduced recoil. They seldom put the numbers on the box of this kind of thing, because they aren't something to be proud of. 

 

You have a gas operated gun which soaks up a lot of the recoil compared to shotguns that stay locked through the whole firing cycle. There really is no reason to run wimpy ammo through it. 

 

 

p.p.s. I think you will want this: http://dpharms.com/products/saiga_muzzle_attachments/saiga_12_gauge_10_slot_flash_hider_choke_adapter.html

Edited by GunFun
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

That choke adapter looks cool, but is it lame that I laughed at the fact that their description says "percision" machined? I'm not normally a grammar Nazi, but when a product page is imprecise about spelling the word "precision," it makes me chuckle. :)

Well I certainly appreciate ALL the advice, whether some consider it lame or not. :)

 

And I appreciate being a part of an online community where people are passionate and have varying methods of skinning the same cats. I'm sure I'll make plenty of mistakes along the way, but I'd much rather learn from the mistakes of those who've done what I'm trying to do already. :)

 

And at the risk of dissapointing AA re-cvrd, 

 

nofatchicks1.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

post-1629-0-26725700-1402548928.jpg

 

Regarding the flash hider that is also a choke adapter, I don't think that is a good idea.  So it's a choke adapter, which is good but it's not a flash hider because the slots are covered.  If the idea is to leave out the choke tube when you need a flash hider, the threads will get messed up.  Also, since the threads are just segments, there is a good chance of them getting stripped eventually and sending the choke tube downrange.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing on the end of an S12 is really a flash hider. There are flash hider shaped objects which work as a breaching stand off, and a muzzle protector.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Uhm. You've already gotten some lame advice above.

 

 

Uhm.  Some may enjoy actually shooting their gun for break-in,  ya know because it is a gun and all.  Well here's my advice, lame as it may sound to some:  Don't spend too much time analyzing graphs and charts and being ridiculous about a simple gun.  Go buy a few different types of shells and go shoot the thing.  Find out what it runs and have a ball doing it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

First, I addressed enjoyment.

"Unless you just want to shoot some buckshot. That's cool."

 

That only helps with lapping the rails in and smoothing the paint down.It doesn't help at all with the bigger problems.

 

The lame advice was passing on the common misconception that buckshot or slugs are more powerful than birdshot loads. They can be, but aren't necessarily so. Frequently they are LESS powerful than the basic trap load. I pass on the chart, because over the years I've seen (& often helped) hundreds of people who took the sadly common advice to just buy a bunch of slugs or buck and break it in. This is lame advice, because:

1: It costs a lot of money. A guy whose website is about owning a Ferrari can probably swing it, but a lot of us couldn't. 

2: Quite a lot of people end up with very low power buckshot or slugs and get bad results. It's not like these are some rare aberrations, reduced power loads are probably as popular as full power.Some get stuck with cases of ammo they could barely afford that won't cycle their guns. Some do drastic alterations to their guns, others get mad and sell the guns, others read up and find ammo useful for the purpose.  I want to save people that frustration, not send them blindly toward it.

3: If they 'just run some buckshot' or whatever, without knowing the power of those shells, it is absolutely meaningless as a diagnostic tool. If the gun doesn't work, they don't know whether it was the ammo or the gun. If the gun does work with those shells (and they are powerful loads of buckshot or slugs), then they have no idea what shells their gun will run on the low end, or what to buy when they want to pick up some light trap loads. They simply don't know if their gun has friction issues or is under gassed. This often results in a post or two about how happy they are with their newly proven perfect gun which flawlessly ran 200 rounds of buckshot last weekend. Then a month or so later post with flabbergasted frustration when they brag on it to friends and then it won't run a bulk pack for anything. Maybe the gun ate 3 bulk packs last weekend and jams constantly this weekend. The post will be like "What the hell is going on?!?!?!?!" - They simply bought 3 1/4 dram eq bulk packs the time it ran, and 2 3/4 dr eq the time it didn't. Because people misleadingly talked as though all buckshot or all bulkpacks are the same. They aren't. Now they have no confidence in their gun and a lot of frustration. It's incredibly easy to direct them toward ammo of known power. 

 

Again this is completely preventable simply by passing on some very simple understanding of how to determine the overall power of ammo.

 

This is why it is so frustrating to me to see over and over, even some people who hang out regularly here sending new people into probable frustration with lazy or even incorrect advice. We need to quit talking about bulkpack ammo as if it is all the same. We need to stop feeding the misconception that buckshot or slugs are more powerful than birdshot. Power has NOTHING to do with shot diameter. Let's quit talking as though it did. It's simply untrue. 

 

I am usually more polite about it, but frankly I am getting tired of seeing people who should know better pass on bad technical advice to unsuspecting victims. Lazy advice costs people money and gets read and repeated by many people who never even set up an account. Bad advice oft repeated is a disease. Let's cure it. 

Edited by GunFun
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Good points GunFun and Evl.

 

 Speaking of bad advise BTW, do NOT make the same mistake so many others have by assuming all the stickied threads here are gospel. Some of that crap that is still stickied here is complete bullshit and should be stricken from these pages.

 

Very first thing to do is carefully examine the ports and the action. I do that before ever throwing down cash for any S-12 or shooting it.The (3 to 4) ports need to be free from obstructions and need to be large enough to deliver enough gas, or I don't care what kind of ammo you use, it's not going to give you any accurate info on how efficiently the gun is actually operating .

 

ONLY test with the 5 round mag the gun came with until you learn all about it's characteristics and needs.

 

The action needs to be free from any burs or abnormalities causing excess friction. The damn things are already over built and geometrically challenged where it truly counts (the mating surfaces of the hammer, bolt carrier, bolt / shells in the mag, and the feed ramp area of the entrance to the chamber. That isn't even talking about the rails that are painted and rough as a cob. "Breaking in" the gun, I don't care how many slugs you shoot or how many times you jack off the gun watching TV, you are not holding a candle to the kind of real life noticeable improvement that comes from having the bolt, carrier, and FCG re-profiled and polished the way it should be by someone who knows what they are doing. It's not a sales gimmick it's real world physics going one there. These guns are not AK rifles no matter how they look on the outside. You want one to run everything or even most things you put through it then the absolute first thing done to it work wise should be eliminating every last bit of excess friction being caused by the very design of the weapon from the start. Yeah sure there are lots of Saigas and Veprs running "great" according to their owners right out of the box or after beating the snot out of them some. Those people who are saying that do not even know what they are missing. Their guns may run ok the way they are now, but they have no clue what they would really be like after a good working over in all the right places.

 

 Good luck & welcome to the forum. Hope your S-12 will become more of an Enzo as the Ferrari goes, after the right kind of love it needs to get it to it's full potential.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...