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NOPE! and cash only...

 

But I don't buy FTF from total strangers either. I'd probably find a gun store that would do a 4473 transfer for you on it so your ass is covered against previous theft and/or crime.

 

If you're buying it from someone you trust and know well, then nobody need to know nuthin'.

Edited by Maxwelhse
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Bill of sale is helpful.. However a dealer transfer is worth the money if you have any sort of indication of oddness about the transaction.

 

If its stolen, the better you can ID the seller the better off you are. Going through a dealer in many states will flag a stolen firearm.. And having it logged into a bound book verifies that you did not steal it.

 

If you know and trust the person, cash and a handshake.. If you don't know them, dealer transfer.

 

Also be aware that some people use the "no names" concept to ditch firearms with problems on someone else.

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Always do what you feel is necessary to protect yourself. Nobody else will do it for you. Out here in SW OR, it has gotten to a point where unless I personally know the person I am buying or selling to; no deal.

 

Even then both of us go through all the usual bill of sale. Yep, we all probably have been offered that "special deal" firearm that seems too good to be true, and probably is. All other sales go thru that FFL. HB of CJ (old coot)

 

This is ironic in that now I am leaning towards and depending upon that FFL infrastructure, but only for the opposite reasons. There are so many shady deals out here or actual government stings, I have too. Shitty.

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Oh.. It also goes without saying that I never SELL anything.. No need for me to worry about what the guy might do with my gun or if its a bullshit BATFE sting or whatever. I would never recommend SELLING FTF. No advantage for you in doing so at all.

 

As Remek used to say, I'm a gun roach motel. They check in, they don't check out.

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I can tell a gun guy and military a mile away. cash and carry both ways.

 

if the dude seems strange like some of the indians i have sold to on the reservation, i make them sign a bill of sale stating that im not a felon and i can legally own a weapon, i write both mine and the buyer or sellers plates on the bill and that is that.

 

i have refused a sale several times when the dude or chick shows up twitchy or with open wounds on the face. :)

 

 

 

PS  It's legal in every state of the Republic to sell firearms to whoever the hell you want.


 Any bill of sale should include a copy of a CURRENT drivers license.

Lots of guys here don't do the NAME IN ALL CAPS. You'd miss out on a lot of sales and good friends if you used that as proof that you are a solid individual. That card only gives you permission to drive an automobile in commerce on an established road.

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If the gun is stolen what good it a bill of sale or hand shake.

Do a transfer.

Bill of sale is record of previous ownership. A thief most likely isn't willing to attach his name to stolen property.

I've always included DL# on my B.O.S for BOTH PARTIES.

Those whom shy away don't need to buy from me, and I don't need to buy from them.

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If I meet someone on line and they want a copy of my id deal is off.

 

Ill show you my id and make sure you have satisfied the need to know we are residents of the same state.

 

You want a driver license number? Fuck off, my address? Fuck off, my ss number? Fuck off, my carry permit number? Fuck off. The most id do is sign a bill of sale with my name only and thats more than legally required.

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Being able to positively ID the seller could remove you from being involved in a stolen firearm case.. Sure they could say they don't know you.

But having a matching signature and their ID number is hard to explain away.

 

Remember not all "stolen firearms" are stolen. Say an older man decides its time to part with a couple older shotguns to pay some bills. You buy one, then a few months pass and he has a mild stroke and has memory issues.. One of his children come over and discover an almost empty gun safe and a broken window latch. They find the list of serial numbers their father kept and report the theft.

 

Time goes by the older man passes on, and you decide its time to sell that old pump gun, the new buyer decides you looked a little shifty and goes to the local police station and have the numbers run. You just sold stolen property and have no way to prove you bought it.. Since its always been assumed to be stolen, your going to have a hard time proving it was paid for.

 

 

If you don't feel you need it, that is fine.. Just remember that sometimes a little paper trail can be useful.

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If I meet someone on line and they want a copy of my id deal is off.

 

Ill show you my id and make sure you have satisfied the need to know we are residents of the same state.

 

You want a driver license number? Fuck off, my address? Fuck off, my ss number? Fuck off, my carry permit number? Fuck off. The most id do is sign a bill of sale with my name only and thats more than legally required.

 

I've gotta agree with you on that. That, and better prices (generally), is the entire reason to buy FTF.

 

As I already said, there is NO ADVANTAGE to SELLING firearm FTF and I would never recommend it.

 

Do I want my cake and to eat it too? YEP! :)

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Before the fucked up laws here, a handshake was good for me.  Kids get fake ID's all the time.  How the fuck am I supposed to know if one is legit.  Plus, before I would get caught with a stolen gun, I'd have to commit a crime or nobody is going to see my serial numbers.

 

I'm sick of the bull shit.  I'm not sending someone to an FFL unless it's the law.  I couldn't find any of the damn receipts I have gotten in the past.  So the receipt means nothing to me any more.

 

I talked to an old timer here that was fuckin furious about the background check law.  He said he used to buy guns outta the newspaper when he was young.  Meet the dude, shake his hand, and everyone is happy.

 

IMO, it could be argued that the less paper on a gun, the less likely to be fucked over for something you didn't do.  With such a gaping hole in the history of most guns (could be numerous FTF x-fers), it would be hard to be convicted with an even decent attorney.

 

If not selling FTF in an FTF legal state is ok with you, then the re-nig bullshit agenda is slowly creeping up on you and working as planned.

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John, I just flat out, and respectfully, disagree with you on many points...

 

 


Plus, before I would get caught with a stolen gun, I'd have to commit a crime or nobody is going to see my serial numbers.

 

Or use it for self defense. Or go hunting with it and run across a DNR. Or any number of other possible situations. Some of them may be questionably legal, but they can and do happen. You having a stolen gun isn't going to help you change the system any... Besides, all you really need to do is call in the PD with the serial number and ask. That's not a promise of accuracy, but better than nothing and its not a 4473.

 

 

 

I talked to an old timer here that was fuckin furious about the background check law.  He said he used to buy guns outta the newspaper when he was young.  Meet the dude, shake his hand, and everyone is happy.

 

 

 

Yeah, and back then many things weren't even serialized. I think its also fair to say that if many of us here had a chance to roll back the clock on America and start fresh with better ideas, we would. That's not an option. So good for what happened in the old days. Its not the old days anymore. You can't drive around drinking a 12 pack anymore either. We can slowly fight to get them back, but just being pissed off and getting yourself into trouble isn't going to help.

 

 

 

IMO, it could be argued that the less paper on a gun, the less likely to be fucked over for something you didn't do.  With such a gaping hole in the history of most guns (could be numerous FTF x-fers), it would be hard to be convicted with an even decent attorney.

 

 

 

The problem is, and we both know it, the courts are skewed for you to prove your innocence when it comes to firearms. I don't have to dig deep to find examples. That's a problem all of its own... However, just how good of an attorney do you hope you find / want to pay for over a 4473?

 

 

 

If not selling FTF in an FTF legal state is ok with you, then the re-nig bullshit agenda is slowly creeping up on you and working as planned.

 

 

 

Do not even try to tell me I'm down with Barack for not selling my serialized weapon, that has a 4473 with my name on it, to "some random dude"... I would have felt exactly the same way if we had ANY president. I certainly wouldn't refuse to go down to the store and buy a NEW firearm today (you paying?) and fill out a 4473. Obviously, as I've said in this thread, there are advantages to buying without one.

 

If things go sideways for us legally I'll be passively resisting just like the rest of you guys (and the guys out East that have honestly impressed the shit outta me... their 4473s aren't stopping them.. The CO recalls were also impressive) because at that point the law will have forced me to become a criminal. I'm in no hurry to go find ways to sign up for the privilege.

 

------

 

I believe that you're legal to do as you please according to your local laws. I also believe that some of that legal behavior carries a risk that I don't care to take and I can't in good conscience recommend someone else do what I won't. I buy FTF from people I know and I sell, literally, nothing. If I were to sell it would be to someone I know (you guys would count, but that would be a 4473 for the vast majority of you) or a dealer. I'm simply not willing to risk this level of trouble in my life over standing on principal when it isn't absolutely nessecary. There is currently no legal battle raging over the background checks. That all happened before my time.

 

I will, entirely agree, that the entire notion of the 4473 is bullshit and nothing but extreme penalties for criminals will keep firearms out of their hands. But that's the world today. We can change that through legal means (yeah, I know... never gonna happen) but we're not going to do it in jail cells.

Edited by Maxwelhse
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Being able to positively ID the seller could remove you from being involved in a stolen firearm case.. Sure they could say they don't know you.

But having a matching signature and their ID number is hard to explain away.

 

Remember not all "stolen firearms" are stolen. Say an older man decides its time to part with a couple older shotguns to pay some bills. You buy one, then a few months pass and he has a mild stroke and has memory issues.. One of his children come over and discover an almost empty gun safe and a broken window latch. They find the list of serial numbers their father kept and report the theft.

 

Time goes by the older man passes on, and you decide its time to sell that old pump gun, the new buyer decides you looked a little shifty and goes to the local police station and have the numbers run. You just sold stolen property and have no way to prove you bought it.. Since its always been assumed to be stolen, your going to have a hard time proving it was paid for.

 

 

If you don't feel you need it, that is fine.. Just remember that sometimes a little paper trail can be useful.

No paper trail is the exact reason a lot of people want to buy from a person rather than an FFL. The way I look at is this. Legally I'm not required to do anything but not feel that the other party is a felon or the gun is stolen. If you don't trust me then why sell or buy from me?

 

If I am at the point I feel I need a bos then the trust ist there and there will be no deal.

 

Only deal I walked from was a Libyan that didn't really know much about guns was only worried what the "clips" Held and was going to pay a large sum for 2 guns. I told him to meet me at an ffl and the deal fell through.

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John, I just flat out, and respectfully, disagree with you on many points...

I'm cool with that...  I'mma respectfully do the same...

 

 

Plus, before I would get caught with a stolen gun, I'd have to commit a crime or nobody is going to see my serial numbers.

 

Or use it for self defense. Or go hunting with it and run across a DNR. Or any number of other possible situations. Some of them may be questionably legal, but they can and do happen. You having a stolen gun isn't going to help you change the system any... Besides, all you really need to do is call in the PD with the serial number and ask. That's not a promise of accuracy, but better than nothing and its not a 4473.

 

Self defense, I'm fucked for receiving stolen property I guess. If it were used in a crime, they can eat a dick. The 4th Amendment grants me the right to travel unmolested.  If I'm not suspected of a crime, they can eat a dick.  We're probably not going to agree on this.  I've bought and sold FTF.  It's a crap shoot.  Sometimes even with friends.  If you don't have the stomach for it, I guess don't exercise your legal right to do so? 

 

 

 

I talked to an old timer here that was fuckin furious about the background check law.  He said he used to buy guns outta the newspaper when he was young.  Meet the dude, shake his hand, and everyone is happy.

 

 

 

Yeah, and back then many things weren't even serialized. I think its also fair to say that if many of us here had a chance to roll back the clock on America and start fresh with better ideas, we would. That's not an option. So good for what happened in the old days. Its not the old days anymore. You can't drive around drinking a 12 pack anymore either. We can slowly fight to get them back, but just being pissed off and getting yourself into trouble isn't going to help.

You totally missed the point.  I talked to said old timer yesterday whom works at an LGS and still did such transactions up until they took our rights away. What on earth does any of this have to do with a 100% legal (FTF) transfer?  Again, I've bought and sold FTF and not in the old days.  Like it or not, you're making Barry and Bloomberg very happy.

 

 

 

IMO, it could be argued that the less paper on a gun, the less likely to be fucked over for something you didn't do.  With such a gaping hole in the history of most guns (could be numerous FTF x-fers), it would be hard to be convicted with an even decent attorney.

 

 

 

The problem is, and we both know it, the courts are skewed for you to prove your innocence when it comes to firearms. I don't have to dig deep to find examples. That's a problem all of its own... However, just how good of an attorney do you hope you find / want to pay for over a 4473?  

Once again kind sir...  Barry owns you!

 

 

 

If not selling FTF in an FTF legal state is ok with you, then the re-nig bullshit agenda is slowly creeping up on you and working as planned.

 

 

 

Do not even try to tell me I'm down with Barack for not selling my serialized weapon, that has a 4473 with my name on it, to "some random dude"... I would have felt exactly the same way if we had ANY president. I certainly wouldn't refuse to go down to the store and buy a NEW firearm today (you paying?) and fill out a 4473. Obviously, as I've said in this thread, there are advantages to buying without one.

I do not believe for one second that you are down with Barry.  You do not have to sell to anyone that you are not 100% comfortable with.  I can not buy or sell a firearm in the state of Colorado without a 4473 and I'm quite pissed about it.  You should be happy that you are still FREE to buy a weapon with no "paper" and yet you bow to the master out of fear.  (I was not a Jew so I did nothing)  

 

If things go sideways for us legally I'll be passively resisting just like the rest of you guys (and the guys out East that have honestly impressed the shit outta me... their 4473s aren't stopping them.. The CO recalls were also impressive) because at that point the law will have forced me to become a criminal. I'm in no hurry to go find ways to sign up for the privilege.

They are sideways Max.  They are one tiny step from fucking bad.  Come the first of the year, barry will start chucking EO's like the fucking madman he is.  You will wish you had bought that paperless gun and will not give a fuck if it came from Hitler himself should this come to fruition.

 

------

 

I believe that you're legal to do as you please according to your local laws. I also believe that some of that legal behavior carries a risk that I don't care to take and I can't in good conscience recommend someone else do what I won't. I buy FTF from people I know and I sell, literally, nothing. If I were to sell it would be to someone I know (you guys would count, but that would be a 4473 for the vast majority of you) or a dealer. I'm simply not willing to risk this level of trouble in my life over standing on principal when it isn't absolutely nessecary. There is currently no legal battle raging over the background checks. That all happened before my time.

Do you ever wonder why "legal behavior" comes with a risk?  That doesn't bother you?  At what point will it be absolutely necessary to you Max?  

 

I will, entirely agree, that the entire notion of the 4473 is bullshit and nothing but extreme penalties for criminals will keep firearms out of their hands. But that's the world today. We can change that through legal means (yeah, I know... never gonna happen) but we're not going to do it in jail cells.

Wow!  You say it's all bull shit and does nothing to stop criminals, yet you are still ok with bowing. 

You seem like a good guy Max.  I get what you're saying as I used to say the same fuking bull shit when I lived under the oppression of the laws of CA.

I'm not going to do anything illegal.  Nor do I expect you to.  But to be afraid to do something totally legal should really tell you something about yourself and what you stand for.

Edited by Big John!
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