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Army Looking to Replace M9 With More "Knock Down Power"


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I want what ever will give our boys the best advantage.

Seems to me it's a helluva lot more patriotic to give our troops the best available, no matter where it's made.   Obviously we need to trust the country we're buying from so china or iran aren't goi

The caliber should start with a 4........

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redo the tokarev.

 

that is a beast of a round. you cant really up the .45 to that point.

 

the US military doesnt have to take a knock on the chin for pride, either.....the 7.62x25 is a super version of the ww1 german mauser pistol round.

 

is there a round that is 9mm but with 45 casing and necked down?

 

size matters, 6+ foot tall soldiers to handle the weapon and carry it isnt very useful in a 4 billion people 5 9 height.

 

they want a round? thats it. 10mmx45acp whatever. in other words, the 7.63 mauser/aka tokarev

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Some how I don’t think some of the existing semi auto guns and ammo above 9X19 are in the running for use

38 Super, 9X21, 9X23, 357 Sig are bigger 9s but not likely.

400 Corbon or 45 GAP I don’t see that happening.

10 mil too much gun for a 100 lb clerk typist to qualify with.

And of course there are a host of other lesser known calibers with no chance of making the cut.

So that leaves the 40 S&W and the 45 ACP.

While I’d think the 45 would be better if I was betting on it I’d put my money on the 40.

The choice won’t be a Glock cause they’re going to want a mechanical safety on the gun. So to figure out who’ll get the contract best bet is try to figure out what manufacture is giving the most hand jobs out in DC.

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2) There will always be a vocal bunch who hates what we have now, another one who likes it... Some of those who are not happy with current equipment will want whatever we had before, others will want new and cutting edge. There's always some arguing for bigger, and some for smaller. It costs a lot of money to make changes, and large organizations change slowly and seldom. Even when great resources in trials prove something new is better, the programs are usually scrapped and the military sticks with what is working 'well enough.' Therefore articles about how the military is going to change should be taken with a great deal of skepticism. Ditto, for articles which present the military as having one agreed opinion or intent.

 

I've never served, so someone please correct me if my thinking is all wrong, but if you're down to your pistol in a combat situation you essentially don't have a gun and may as well start hurling insults and rocks, right?

 

Soo... Since it is probably YOUR life on the line. in a very hail mary moment, just why in the hell can't you carry whatever you want as long as it meets a minimum standard and you pay to own/maintain it? Obviously the military couldn't support 800 different pistol calibers, but if you want a Hi Point 9mm or a $5000 target 9mm, why not?

 

Cops can do this in many jurisdictions and rely on their pistols far more than soldiers. I suppose I'm living in a world where things could be as simple as they really could be.

 

 

Its not just "your life on the line" its also the guy next to you and the guy behid you and the guy whos two soldiers in front. You are a fighting unit not Rambo. Because no one will want to be next to the guy who thinks a Bergmann is good enough because his granddad carried it in ww1. I dont want to run out of ammo and find you you desided to bring 9 largo and a 30-30 rifle. I also dont want to be next to the guy who doesnt have parts to fix his antiquated gun. When individuals are allowed to bring they're own they often choose using emotion instead of logic. I dont want to be stuck with the guy using a 38spl snubby because it has pretty lines and Glocks are plastic and ugly. The military is a machine, no emotion involved...ok less emotion involved. The simplest thing would be for everyone to have the same not for everyone to supply their own.

 

This was a problem in ww1 and ww2 especially with Germany. Their handguns were Mausers, Astras, Radom, FEG, FN, Steyr, Saur, Star, Walther, and a host of Czech and captured Russian handguns. Calibers ranged from 32, 380, 9mm, 7.63x25, 7.62Tok, 9x23 Largo.

 

I dont think the 1911 is a great idea either. Something thats easier to fix would probably be a better choice

 

I am not for or against anything here, but what is easier to fix/maintain than a 1911?????? 

 

Jack

 

 

So maybe its a little quicker to strip but all parts need to be fitted. So...install, chech, remove, file, reinstall, check, remove, file some more....etc...etc. Nothing on 1911 is a drop in part.

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Wrote this on another forum so I'm just gonna repost it here:

 

 

They're gonna waste millions of dollars of taxpayer money, make a few quality pistol manufacturers spend millions on R&D, get every private in my unit asking me "Sergeant, have you heard when we're getting 1911's yet?" and then they'll cancel the bid request and keep issuing M-9s.

 

Yup, QFMFT!

This is just more defense-contractor-needs-a-job bullshit. How many pistol programs have we had so far? Lets see:

1979-1983: wikipedia_icon.gif Joint Service Small Arms Program

1988: XM10 Pistol Trials
2000(?): Future Handgun System
2000-2005(?): Special Operations Forces Combat Pistol Program
2005-2006:

(merger of previous two)
2008-Current:

 
See a trend here?

Military arms procurement is a fucking joke, and a bad one at that. The punchline is the taxpayer footing the bill, but it is ultimately the soldiers who end up paying for it.

 

And I know this part is gonna hurt everyones little feewings, but "Made In America"? What decade do you think this is? 021.gif

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I'll be surprised if they pick a 40 just because there is no history with 40 fmj. 

 

But then I was surprised that they picked the M9.

it wouldnt surprise me since a shit load of feds use this caliber already. they have existing contracts with the ammo and weapons mfg and the .40 just makes sense for a battle load. better than 9, more ammo than .45 good weight and great knock down. I do not like .40 as it is too poppy and hot feeling for me. I like to launch lead out of a pistol instead of jetting lighting fast lead.

 

I kept my piece of shit (M9) with the armorer and carried a 1911.

Wrote this on another forum so I'm just gonna repost it here:

 

 

They're gonna waste millions of dollars of taxpayer money, make a few quality pistol manufacturers spend millions on R&D, get every private in my unit asking me "Sergeant, have you heard when we're getting 1911's yet?" and then they'll cancel the bid request and keep issuing M-9s.

 

Yup, QFMFT!

This is just more defense-contractor-needs-a-job bullshit. How many pistol programs have we had so far? Lets see:

 

1979-1983: wikipedia_icon.gif Joint Service Small Arms Program

1988: XM10 Pistol Trials

2000(?): Future Handgun System

2000-2005(?): Special Operations Forces Combat Pistol Program

2005-2006:

(merger of previous two)

2008-Current:

 
See a trend here?

Military arms procurement is a fucking joke, and a bad one at that. The punchline is the taxpayer footing the bill, but it is ultimately the soldiers who end up paying for it.

 

And I know this part is gonna hurt everyones little feewings, but "Made In America"? What decade do you think this is? 021.gif

We tested a lot of shit in GA. Procurement is just what it is. It has to work and be cost effective. The shit you listed is such a small part of what really goes on that it's insignificant. It will have to be made in America for a period of time if you want the US army to buy it. Lots of foreign companies have done this for the specified period.

 

Like cheap gas, kick ass roads, secure populations, good drinking water, nice schools, great communications and decent pay?

 

Well fuck, we will have to take some of your taxes and pay for the military industrial complex that keeps this country running at the level is always has. That level is one notch above fucking amazing compared to all the shithole countries I have visited.

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I wonder if anyone has considered making a new "military" round for the 9mm?  :huh:

 

Since our Military insists on being bound by the Hague Convention (that we did NOT sign!), and the regular 124gr. hardball round sucks, why not try to come up with something better? Maybe a 140+ grain semi-jacketed, in either a truncated cone or round-nose?  :unsure:

 

Just tossing out ideas is all...

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Fucking A, just get the damn 1911 out of mothballs, add an extended 10 round mag, (readily available) problem solved! IF you need more than 10 shots with your sidearm you are likely dead anyway...

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For all you Gents hung up on the "Made in America" point. HK .45s are made in America and have been for a couple of years....I dont think the ramping up of US production is conquencidance. HK has been jockeying for the pistol contract as soon as the 416 was adopted. Given their financial situation they will do and need to do whatever they can to win the contract.

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The alphabet agencies don't have the same restrictions as the military.  The 40s in federal service get to use expanding ammunition.

 

I was also under the strong impression that the only reason the alphabets use .40 is because they couldn't shoot with 10mm. I would hope that military training is good enough to teach a soldier to shoot with "whatever".

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For all you Gents hung up on the "Made in America" point. HK .45s are made in America and have been for a couple of years....I dont think the ramping up of US production is conquencidance. HK has been jockeying for the pistol contract as soon as the 416 was adopted. Given their financial situation they will do and need to do whatever they can to win the contract.

If they can beat FN.

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A  Smith M@P in 45 would be a good choice

 

screw the others , I want an American gun

 

I don't know if the HK is the best, but the M9 does suck balls. I own Sigs, Glocks, FN's and Hk's and really don't see how one is more reliable than the other. But for a replacement, I'd say it will likely be a FN or Sig over the others. Maybe HK, but they better come up with a hell of a deal. But not Glock as they don't have an external safety.

Add an external safety, manufacture them in Smyrna, Georgia - everyone's happy.

About the only gun worse than the m9  is a high point

 

 

 

how can we lose with ANY switch?

I respectfully disagree - I would rather carry a hi-point than a beretta.

 

hi-points sucks to strip or maintain - but I've never seen one dangerously catastrophically fail, whereas I have personally had the slide crack on a 92FS.

Also, hi-point pistols, as cheaply made, bulky and ugly they are - are very reliable shooters.

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A  Smith M@P in 45 would be a good choice

 

screw the others , I want an American gun

 

I don't know if the HK is the best, but the M9 does suck balls. I own Sigs, Glocks, FN's and Hk's and really don't see how one is more reliable than the other. But for a replacement, I'd say it will likely be a FN or Sig over the others. Maybe HK, but they better come up with a hell of a deal. But not Glock as they don't have an external safety.

Add an external safety, manufacture them in Smyrna, Georgia - everyone's happy.

About the only gun worse than the m9  is a high point

 

 

 

how can we lose with ANY switch?

I respectfully disagree - I would rather carry a hi-point than a beretta.

 

hi-points sucks to strip or maintain - but I've never seen one dangerously catastrophically fail, whereas I have personally had the slide crack on a 92FS.

Also, hi-point pistols, as cheaply made, bulky and ugly they are - are very reliable shooters.

 

I cant argue with facts, i have seen many 92s fly apart

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I read a really good write up the other day written by an SF Operator in regards to this and it wasn't based on the old 9mm vs .45 ACP knockdown power argument. He has been exclusively involved in evaluating handguns to replace the M9. The most important point he had was the fact you still have to put multiple rounds in a target to neutralize it with either caliber. 9mm offers better follow ups than larger calibers. More ammo capacity seems to be more of importance The M9 is a piece of shit and Special Forces recognized that years ago and run the G19, 17, and G34 platforms. Navy SEALs prefer the Sig 226 in 9mm and use the HK USP .45 for suppressed roles. USMC MARSOC and their new Colt single stacks have learned the hard way in Afghanistan, they cannot get ammo through the NATO supply channels and have reverted to issuing M9s again. His point was simply the fact SOCOM in general prefers the 9mm and has been neutralizing threats with them for quite some time.

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Shit if they want good capacity, then FNX-45 comes equipped with 15rd mags as a standard, and as surprising as it may seem, is a relatively soft shooting .45 with hot loads. For those of you who havent been able to shoot one, I suggest you do. Its a pleasure.

 

But for using High points, I dont really know if they could stand up to the abuses that will likely follow with military use. Id be curious to see how they fair along side the others in the testing.

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Shit if they want good capacity, then FNX-45 comes equipped with 15rd mags as a standard, and as surprising as it may seem, is a relatively soft shooting .45 with hot loads. For those of you who havent been able to shoot one, I suggest you do. Its a pleasure.

 

But for using High points, I dont really know if they could stand up to the abuses that will likely follow with military use. Id be curious to see how they fair along side the others in the testing.

Oh, poorly no doubt. They'd probably do well for number of rounds between malfunctions - but really poorly for long term durability. More than about 5k rounds through one and that pot metal slide is probably close to toast.

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MT made the key point that all our NATO buddies aren't going to jump on a new caliber to replace their 9mms so a lot of this is just pissing in the wind.

Pissing it may be for a different caliber, but not in getting rid of the shitty M9.

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Give a SOCOM a sharpened stick and he'll find a way to kill the enemy with it.  If you ask a real operator (which excludes everybody on the internet) how many shots he'll fire on a single target with a 9mm I'm betting the answer is never less than 3.  I'm also betting he'll ask you why he can't use his rifle.  And with his rifle he's probably going to use a double tap.

 

The most likely user for a handgun is a pogue.  They're not going to train with their sidearm enough to make even 1 reliable hit, much less triple taps.  They also won't learn to clear malfunctions, or even clean it.  So we need a handgun that aims and fires itself, stops in 1 hit every time, has no recoil, and never needs cleaning.  Simple.

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Shit if they want good capacity, then FNX-45 comes equipped with 15rd mags as a standard, and as surprising as it may seem, is a relatively soft shooting .45 with hot loads. For those of you who havent been able to shoot one, I suggest you do. Its a pleasure.

 

 

I have a FNP-40 USG and I love it. That pistol holds 14 rounds of 40 cal., which is one of the main reasons I bought it. I love the ability to change backstraps on it to get a custom fit and it too is a a soft shooter. The pistol is also US made, in Fredricksburg Virginia as a matter of fact....

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If they want better knockdown power in the 1911 format, how about the .50 acp pistol now available? I forgot who makes it. Spendy but very nice. Then add to it by using expanding full metal jacket bullets? HB of CJ (old coot)

 

Edit; Made by Guncrafters. I got to shoot one. Actually very controllable. Very different from a Crock 20 10mm. Just me.

Edited by HB of CJ
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