Jump to content

Saiga IZ-433 Bolt Hold Open Release


Recommended Posts

I am hoping someone can shed some light on the problem I am having with my two Saiga IZ-433 shotguns.  I have bought two of these from Legion in the past few months to go with my Vepr 12.  I decided to go with the IZ-433 magwell type Saiga 12 over the traditional rock and lock so I could share the same mags between my Saiga 12 and Vepr 12.  Anyways, when the bolt locks open after the last round fired the little BHO lever/button in the trigger area is supposed to release the bolt and pick up the first round from the new mag.  On BOTH of my brand new IZ-433s the BHO lever/button DOES NOT release the bolt when locked open.  This function works flawlessly on my Vepr 12, but doesn't work on either of my Saigas.

 

Currently I am having to push and hold the BHO lever with one hand and manually pull the bolt carrier back and let it slide forward with the other hand.  Kind of a pain in the ass compared to the Vepr 12.  Is this how the IZ-433 magwell version Saiga 12 is supposed to be or is it supposed to be just like the Vepr 12?  Did I seriously get TWO defective guns?  I am sure its probably an easy fix, but what are the chances of this happening on two guns back to back.  Anyone else experience this?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless the 433's have last round bolt hold opens (unlikely I'd think), then it's normal. My Saiga 12 is the same way. Pull the bolt rearward, push the BHO lever up, bolt is locked. To release, pull charging handle rearward, let it fly home. Hope this helps.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The magwell saiga does not use the lever to release the bolt carrier.  On another forum, someone was having that issue also. 

 

Mine did not before the conversion (I got the sporterized version and had POHF do a full 5.5 conversion minus the barrel chop to the correct length).  You should be able to push up into the receiver to get it to release but it isn't designed for it.  My 030 however, after the conversion, kept getting hung up on the rim of the cartridge from the magazine and holding the bolt open.  I took out the lever and bent it a little so it wouldn't do that anymore (just needed a very minute bit of clearance) and when I put it back in it solved the issue of the bolt being held back and it allowed the bolt carrier to be closed with the lever ( it does need to be extended a small bit to be more useful as it is sometimes hard to activate).

 

But the saigas weren't designed for it (maybe competition versions though).  I again confirmed this when talked to Lee from Sierra Ordnance Company that the magwell saigas did not use the bolt release lever; just use the charging handle like an regular ak.  He did a fantastic job of getting my 030 running again.  Only the Vepr 12 has that ability.

 

On a side note I had problems with my 030 running ammo after the conversion.  The gas ports were blocked by the replacement railed gasblock.  I got the gasblock off carefully and easily.  I then opened up the gas block a very small amount and when I went to put the gasblock on, it was way too loose (I must have screwed something up somehow; I was very careful though).  Sierra Ordnance company increased the journal size and milled down the ears of the rear trunnion for the bolt carrier and smoothed a rivet in the top cover that was making contact on the bolt carrier.  He then cerakoted it black.  POHF and SOC were both great and easy to get a hold of and talk to.  Gun looks and runs great now.

 

Edit: If you ever want to get one of your iz433's to look more like a authentic 030, I highly recommend either of the two gunsmiths I mentioned.  SOC, however, has a much shorter turn around time than POHF and he finished way before the quoted work time.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited by SLR
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless the 433's have last round bolt hold opens (unlikely I'd think), then it's normal. My Saiga 12 is the same way. Pull the bolt rearward, push the BHO lever up, bolt is locked. To release, pull charging handle rearward, let it fly home. Hope this helps.

 

Yes, all the IZ-433 models come with a LRBHO

 

The magwell saiga does not use the lever to release the bolt carrier. On another forum, someone was having that issue also.

 

But the saigas weren't designed for it (maybe competition versions though). I again confirmed this when talked to Lee from Sierra Ordnance Company that the magwell saigas did not use the bolt release lever; just use the charging handle like an regular ak. He did a fantastic job of getting my 030 running again. Only the Vepr 12 has that ability.

 

Edit: If you ever want to get one of your iz433's to look more like a authentic 030, I highly recommend either of the two gunsmiths I mentioned. SOC, however, has a much shorter turn around time than POHF and he finished way before the quoted work time.

 

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the insight SLR. Although, it seems so strange to me that the LRBHO lever doesn't release the carrier just like the Vepr 12 does. I even pulled the carrier out of both my Vepr and Saiga and could not find a single visual difference between the two LRBHO release mechanisms. Except that only the Vepr one actually works.

 

So you are saying that Lee at SOC got the release lever working just like the Vepr 12?

Edited by lsxevo
Link to post
Share on other sites

No, Lee confirmed to me that the saigas, unlike the vepr, did not use the lever to release the bolt.  The way I got it to work was that the rims of the shells in the magazine were activating the bolt hold and holding the bolt back when there were still cartridges in the magazine, so I took out the bolt hold lever and bent it slightly so that the shells were not catching on it.  It must have changed the lever just enough so that I can use it.

 

If the vepr lever is exactly the same as the iz433 then I dont know why it doesn't work.  I don't have the vepr and I assumed the lever had a different geometry than that of the saiga.  I am thinking that there must be something a little different .  I know the vepr has a thicker receiver; maybe it all lrbho and magwell stuff sits in a little different.  I wish I had a Vepr 12 though.  It's puzzling for sure.  If you figure anything out, let us know.  All I knew was that my saiga did not work, another poster here ( I forgot his screenname) saiga lever didnt work, and Lee told me they didn't work.  You can ask Lee, I could have misread his email, I'm sure he would answer your questions.  I wish I could help more.

Link to post
Share on other sites

For everyone having the same problem as me, I FINALLY figured out the culprit!  First of all, I have been doing a lot of reading and research on the IZ-433 Saiga 12s ever since I received two of them directly from Legion USA and the BHO levers obviously did not work on either gun like they were SUPPOSED to.  Once the bolt was locked back the little lever sticking out the bottom of receiver would not release the bolt when pushed up just like it does on the VEPR 12.  Just FYI, I bought the already converted Taktika models from Legion if it matters to others reading this.  Anyways, I initially did a visual inspection on both of my brand new Saiga 12s and Vepr 12 that I have had for a while.  Every single part looked IDENTICAL which left me scratching my head on why only the Vepr 12 worked correctly.  I then stumbled across several posts and some old conversations I had with Lone Star Arms where he mentioned that pretty much every single part between the IZ-433 and Vepr 12s are interchangeable.  They are basically the same damn gun with different hand guards and receivers have slightly different thickness.  At that point I said to myself, "I going to figure this son of bitch out!" 

 

After all the hours I spent researching the problem and coming up short I said screw it and decided to completely tear down both my Vepr 12 and Saiga 12 and compare each part side by side to help determine the problem.  At this point I can confirm that Lone Star Arms was 100% correct.  I started swapping parts one by one out of my Vepr in to my Saiga until I determined which part was faulty or possibly different.  Once I put the BHO lever from my Vepr in to the Saiga it worked like a DREAM!  So once I narrowed it down to the BHO lever and had my Saiga working like it SUPPOSED to from the factory I then removed the lever once again and compared it side by side to the original Saiga lever that came with the gun.  I was a little disgruntled to say the least.

 

I don't know about everyone else, but mine was a combination of two problems.  The first problem was that the pivoting hole on the BHO lever was reamed out too big and out of round.  This hindered the lever from articulating up and down correctly and smoothly because the hole was sloppy.  The Saiga lever is on the right in both pictures and the Vepr on the left.  Also, after studying the Saiga lever it appears to me that whoever assembly the gun after conversion forced the axis pin back in when the hole wasn't lined up correctly.  I think that's why only one side of the hole is blown or pushed out.  Who knows for sure though how it happened.  Could have been defective straight from the factory.  The second problem is that the tip of the BHO lever is too short on the Saiga 12 model.  The can see in the picture that the Saiga lever on the right has a slightly shorter tip than the Vepr lever on the left.  Basically how it works is the magazine follower pushes the tip up and the other side of BHO lever which sticks out the bottom of receiver gets pushed down like a Seesaw or teeter totter.  Anyways with the tip being shorter is doesn't push as much of the lever out of the receiver.  Its kind of hard for me to explain, but basically you lose a little stroke length needed to release the bolt with the lever.  Between that and the oversized hole the mechanism that actually held the bolt open barely even moved when I pushed the lever.  Which is why the bolt would not release when locked back after last round.

 

Anyways, I hope this helps others out because I know everyone doesn't have a spare gun laying around like I did.  If I didn't have a functional gun to compare it to I might not have ever figured it out.  Hopefully I can get a replacement BHO lever from Legion if this import ban doesn't screw me on parts.  If I can't get a another lever then removing the BHO all together is I guess the alternative.

post-43556-0-64720000-1406428942_thumb.jpg

post-43556-0-58968800-1406428950_thumb.jpg

Edited by lsxevo
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent post! I own one and have another one on the way. Im happy with them regardless. I will fix when I got some spare time. They are excellent shotguns and function flawlessly. I never use those little bho buttons, I just pull the charging handle on the bolt rearward and let it fly. Maybe Ill buy another V12 to get the parts I need. lol.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Lambert. With the exception of the BHO lever issues which brand new Vepr 12s can also have both of my Saigas have run flawlessly. I have actually decided that I even like IZ-433s better than my Vepr and will actually probably end up selling the Vepr since I have two Saigas. First, the Saiga has a continuous steel picatinny rail across the dust over where the Vepr is polymer, and not 100% continuous. Second, I prefer the slightly lighter standard stamped 1mm receivers that was part of the original AK design. Like Jim Fuller with Rifle Dynamics always says, "The AK platform was designed to twist and flex on a stamped receiver and that's what makes it so reliabe.". The Vepr's thicker receiver makes it stiffer and removes some of its ability to twist and flex. Third, the Saiga uses standard AK furniture with a slightly modded rear secrion on lower hand guard. Lastly, I find the Saiga magwell magazines to be superior over the Vepr magazines. I actually started running the Saiga mags in my Vepr 12 as well for better reliability. I won't take credit for that one though. Lone Star Arms pointed me in the right direction on the Saiga mags. Hopefully Legion USA will get some more Saiga magwell mags in if this Obamaban doesn't screw all us more than it already has.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I added an adjustable kicklite stock to my 433a. What a difference! I like them more than the V12 too. I plan on selling one of my sidefolder V12s.Im also trading a 54r for a V12 with a fixed stock. I Will try a kicklite on that one too, to compare it to the 433a. Saltydecimator turned me on to the Saiga builds and I figured I would try the No-Regulation(self regulating?) S12 first. I have a 410 with the adjustable gas system. I cant believe Legion still has any of the 433a in stock. Everyone wants a V12. If I had the cash flow, I would buy them all up..lol. I ordered some muzzlebrakes to compare to the GK01 which is an outstanding piece but really long. Its been a long 8 years having a Commie President. Hes doing his best to destroy our country before he leaves office. We need Reagan back. Regards!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

lsxevo, I just got the imported, non-converted version of the IZ-433 S12 today.  I too noticed that lever was not letting the bolt go forward.  It appears that this likely happened at the factory and not at the hands of Legion USA.  I do hope that a new lever can be made for replacement or some how modified to work.  I thank you for your research and results into this current problem of IZ-433 S12's.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for the right up, good info. I too just bought a 433 from Legion, mine is currently unconverted, but that will soon be fixed. My BHO release lever also doesn't work. Kind of frustrating but why would the Russians want to import functional guns just before they invade? haha.gif

 

Anyway, I'm a leftie and will probably just slap the charging handle anyway, as my trigger finger is on the correct side of the gun. During your experimentation, did you happen to notice if it would effect anything by just removing it? Maybe let something wiggle too much or drift too far over? I haven't gotten around to tearing the thing apart and playing with it yet, I get a good bit of next week off to do that after the parts come in.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nevermind, I just pulled the bolt out and poked at it with my finger and now see that the release lever is on the other end of the same piece that actually holds the bolt open. Please berate me for being dumb.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nevermind, I just pulled the bolt out and poked at it with my finger and now see that the release lever is on the other end of the same piece that actually holds the bolt open. Please berate me for being dumb.

 

 

You so dummm!!    haha.gifbad_smile.gif

 

dunt feel bad tho, me dummy too.

Those pictures make it a lot clearer on why the bolt won't release on the saigas.  Good stuff.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me ask everybody a question, if we were to manufacture a replacement BHO, that would allow the bolt to close like in the Vepr 12, who would be interested in buying this part for the IZ-433, also what price would you like to see them at? Thanks for all your input!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally would buy one.  Not only as a something that works better than the factory BHO, but as a spare part.  At what price point?  I don't know how much it would cost to make such an item.  I would say maybe around but hopefully less than $50? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me ask everybody a question, if we were to manufacture a replacement BHO, that would allow the bolt to close like in the Vepr 12, who would be interested in buying this part for the IZ-433, also what price would you like to see them at? Thanks for all your input!

Yes, but keep it under $75.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me ask everybody a question, if we were to manufacture a replacement BHO, that would allow the bolt to close like in the Vepr 12, who would be interested in buying this part for the IZ-433, also what price would you like to see them at? Thanks for all your input!

I would be interested also. I would buy 4 of them.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Let me ask everybody a question, if we were to manufacture a replacement BHO, that would allow the bolt to close like in the Vepr 12, who would be interested in buying this part for the IZ-433, also what price would you like to see them at? Thanks for all your input!

This is definitely a well needed product. 50$ or less would be reasonable. But to be able to drop the bolt like a boss=priceless.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...