another investment question- stock or mod?

[beetles 1]

Been wanting a Saiga 12 for a long time, but living in the land of Aloha it doesn't make much sense. The range here only allows 5 rounds in the mag and at least 1 second in between shots (slugs only), so it's not a lot of fun. My gun clup meets once a month and we can have some fun with it there, but sometimes I'm working and won't be able to go for a few months at a time.

 

They had one at the neighborhood LGS for $900 out the door so I picked it up, since this is probably the last chance to grab one sub-1k. It's very difficult not to mess with it. Those sporting trigger rivets are so ugly and it's taking a lot of self control not to grab the power drill.

 

The second question, besides the poll, is if there are any parts that I should get now to go with it which won't be available later? I got an extra bolt carrier for my Saiga 7.62x39 (keeping) since those are going to be hard to find going forward. As far as I can tell all the parts for the Saiga 12 are available aftermarket now, but it's possible prices could go up on some accessories especially if manufacturers decide to stop supporting a market that will no longer expand. 

[forsaken352 235]

From an investment standpoint, I couldn't tell you, so I will not vote. Accessories, on the other hand, I'd say get yourself some mags. At least one MD-20 (heard they won't be manufactured anymore, supposedly replaced with something else, but who knows now), some CSSpec or factory (factory would hold value better) 8 rounders would probably be best. Me? I'd convert it, hold onto it and don't worry about prices, just because you seem like you've been anxious to own one for a while. I say all this without knowing your local and state laws, so do your research. This is just what I would do.

Edited July 26, 2014 by forsaken352

[haugpatr 972]

Right now the stock models are selling very well on Gun Broker, the "restored" models are not really selling right now.  I imagine that could change after the "unconverted" ones run out, but who knows.

[gunman1 1,753]

I've had one sitting in the back of the safe for about a year now, I ordered a conversion kit from Dinzag the day after the ban happened, God only knows what his back order looks like now. I keep saying if the price gets high enough I will sell it, but my doesn't think I will...we'll see. 

 

Oh...welcome aboard, this one's on the house

 

 

 

           

[HighPlainsDrifter 466]

I would purchase a 100 series folding stock with hinge mechanism and front latch. Regardless if you ever get it installed the parts themselves will be of value when supply runs out. It also makes for a very attractive build. Only downfall is installation is not for the faint at heart and better off left to a professional. Contact Leland at Sierra Ordinance. He did mine.

 

I would also buy all the fcg parts as you may want to convert years down the road when parts are no longer available. Whatever you do have fun with it. There is no point in owning a firearm that doesn't get any use.

[snooter 6]

i wont sell..only mod I will trust is tromix..the saiga rifles might have more value than the S12's..all my take of course-god speed

 

ps: what i would buy is not more firearms..I would by buying as much AMMO as you can afford right now

Edited July 26, 2014 by snooter

[haugpatr 972]

..the saiga rifles might have more value than the S12's..

 

It is Saiga shotguns and VEPR rifles that will have more value as they can't be replaced, Bulgarian rifles can replace Saiga rifles and are probably nicer.

[forsaken352 235]

 

..the saiga rifles might have more value than the S12's..

 

It is Saiga shotguns and VEPR rifles that will have more value as they can't be replaced, Bulgarian rifles can replace Saiga rifles and are probably nicer.

 

 

Exactly. The only other alternative is things like the MKA-1919 and such. Personally, though, I think the Saiga/VEPR .308's might be worth something due to the chambering. The VEPR x54r, also. I am very thankful I was able to get my hands on both the 12 and .308 before sanctions hit. It'll be Bulgarian from here on out (if I bother replacing my WASR). We still have not seen what the future holds for x39.

[beetles 1]

Thank you for the warm and squishy welcome. Went to the gun club today and they said we have a max limit of 10 rounds per mag even though they can hold more. Maybe I'll grab one and then get spendy on sticks. One drum makes sense in a way since a during the event of a zombe attack nobody wants to be drum fumbling. Sweep the alley and when you run low it's time to go.

 

Looks like it's time to go ahead and order those fcg parts, too. As far as the 100 series folding stock, that thing looks sweet but in case the laws change I'd like to keep the tang so I can un-restore it. Boy, what an ugly word.
 

The future of x39 is always on the back of my mind. Cheep steel case has definitely got to be on the grabber radar. Dark days are ahead. At least we have the concealed carry victory in DC to cheer today. Maybe soon our day will come, and it won't just be the well-heeled and well-connected to can protect themselves here.

[Zippyman 3]

I don't think "investment" is really the proper term for these - unless you're able to buy ten or twenty at a time & sit on them for at least a few years.  The recent bump in pricing will have lots of safe queens popping out of the shadows with all the classic "bubba" mods keeping a lid on pricing.  When they've been gone for 5+ years - perhaps after they're named in an AWB situation, the (currently) $900 unconverted Saigas might pop to $1500~ish..  above that, there really isn't much room for appreciation - you lose a lot of buyers when you pop over $1k. 

 

People who intent to shoot these guns might be ok with kitchen-table gunsmiths slicked/tricked/converted guns, but anyone hoping to buy a nice one is going to want to pick the furniture/mods/toys themselves. 

 

If you're going to shoot it at all, I'd look at it more as a toy that you won't lose *much* money on, after buying all the toys/accessories/mods.

 

A "fresh" gun, still in the plastic - perhaps with the proven mods/accessories (puck, fcg, quality furniture, quality mags - including at least one drum to up the politically incorrect factor) will the the big "score" in the years to come. 

Edited July 27, 2014 by Zippyman

[gunman1 1,753]

I don't think "investment" is really the proper term for these - unless you're able to buy ten or twenty at a time & sit on them for at least a few years.  The recent bump in pricing will have lots of safe queens popping out of the shadows with all the classic "bubba" mods keeping a lid on pricing.  When they've been gone for 5+ years - perhaps after they're named in an AWB situation, the (currently) $900 unconverted Saigas might pop to $1500~ish..  above that, there really isn't much room for appreciation - you lose a lot of buyers when you pop over $1k. 

 

People who intent to shoot these guns might be ok with kitchen-table gunsmiths slicked/tricked/converted guns, but anyone hoping to buy a nice one is going to want to pick the furniture/mods/toys themselves. 

 

If you're going to shoot it at all, I'd look at it more as a toy that you won't lose *much* money on, after buying all the toys/accessories/mods.

 

A "fresh" gun, still in the plastic - perhaps with the proven mods/accessories (puck, fcg, quality furniture, quality mags - including at least one drum to up the politically incorrect factor) will the the big "score" in the years to come. 

 

I beg to differ, recent experience proves the above statement to be far off the mark. Sandy Hook alone pushed the cost over $2,000.00 and availability to exactly ZERO.

[Zippyman 3]

 

I don't think "investment" is really the proper term for these - unless you're able to buy ten or twenty at a time & sit on them for at least a few years.  The recent bump in pricing will have lots of safe queens popping out of the shadows with all the classic "bubba" mods keeping a lid on pricing.  When they've been gone for 5+ years - perhaps after they're named in an AWB situation, the (currently) $900 unconverted Saigas might pop to $1500~ish..  above that, there really isn't much room for appreciation - you lose a lot of buyers when you pop over $1k. 

 

People who intent to shoot these guns might be ok with kitchen-table gunsmiths slicked/tricked/converted guns, but anyone hoping to buy a nice one is going to want to pick the furniture/mods/toys themselves. 

 

If you're going to shoot it at all, I'd look at it more as a toy that you won't lose *much* money on, after buying all the toys/accessories/mods.

 

A "fresh" gun, still in the plastic - perhaps with the proven mods/accessories (puck, fcg, quality furniture, quality mags - including at least one drum to up the politically incorrect factor) will the the big "score" in the years to come. 

 

I beg to differ, recent experience proves the above statement to be far off the mark. Sandy Hook alone pushed the cost over $2,000.00 and availability to exactly ZERO.

 

 

 

There were lots of dreamers and goobers who posted $2k M&P Sports, plastic Bushmasters & heavily-bubba'd Saigas on Gunsmoker & Backpage after sandy hook - Much like the $650 Glocks on there today, they don't sell. 

 

If your "target market" for an "investment" is retarded people in a panic situation, then, yeah.. you might score.. 

 

Heck..  with a business model like that - you should know there's a grade school down the street from me & many of the kids who attend pre-pay in COLD HARD CASH for their lunches on Tuesdays -  if you gave just a couple of them atomic-wedgies, the rest would probably roll over & hand over FAT STACKS OF CASH! 

Edited July 27, 2014 by Zippyman

[gunman1 1,753]

These guns went from $700 to $1400 in a two day period, and now you would be hard pressed to find one at all. Buying low and selling high is the key to any smart investment, doubling or even tripling my original investment is "in my retarded opinion" a good investment. Time will tell, we'll see how much the one I have in the back of the safe is worth in a few months.

 

Statements like this usually win people over pretty quickly

 

Heck..  with a business model like that - you should know there's a grade school down the street from me & many of the kids who attend pre-pay in COLD HARD CASH for their lunches on Tuesdays -  if you gave just a couple of them atomic-wedgies, the rest would probably roll over & hand over FAT STACKS OF CASH! 

[forsaken352 235]

Well, I will say this.. I hang out on the AR forums a lot, and whenever the subject of an AK and its pricetag come up in the same conversation, most people swear against even an $700.00 price tag for an AK. A good portion resort back to "the good ol' days" when they could pick up an AK for $100.00  and its ammunition for $0.03 a round. (exaggerating)

[Zippyman 3]

These guns went from $700 to $1400 in a two day period, and now you would be hard pressed to find one at all. Buying low and selling high is the key to any smart investment, doubling or even tripling my original investment is "in my retarded opinion" a good investment. Time will tell, we'll see how much the one I have in the back of the safe is worth in a few months.

 

Statements like this usually win people over pretty quickly

 

Heck..  with a business model like that - you should know there's a grade school down the street from me & many of the kids who attend pre-pay in COLD HARD CASH for their lunches on Tuesdays -  if you gave just a couple of them atomic-wedgies, the rest would probably roll over & hand over FAT STACKS OF CASH! 

 

 

Saigas went from $600 to $850 for anyone with any google fu - I paid $584.42 (shipped)  for my Saiga 12 on the 17th. 

 

http://www.firearmsforsale.com/unknown/unknown/rwc-saiga-12ga-shotgun-19in/  <--- 7 in stock right now @ $850-ish

 

If you saw an unconverted Saiga go for $1400, that was an uninformed buyer.  If it was fully converted with extra mags/drums & a kung-fu grip then the seller may well have lost money.   

 

You're not going to triple your money unless you're willing to wait a very long and undetermined amount of time, or you find a sucker. 

 

It is very likely you'll double your money if you hold it at least a few months until things settle down & the gun wholesalers run out..   - especially if there's more talk of an AWB. 

Edited July 27, 2014 by Zippyman

[gunman1 1,753]

PT Barnum......

[beetles 1]

 

A "fresh" gun, still in the plastic - perhaps with the proven mods/accessories (puck, fcg, quality furniture, quality mags - including at least one drum to up the politically incorrect factor) will the the big "score" in the years to come. 

 

 

I'm warming up to this idea more and more, Zip. Right now I'm thinking one drum and some metal mags. They have the fcg and pistol grip trigger guard adapter from Carolina SS still available but do you think there are better/more desirable ones out there? As far as the other stuff you mentioned what has the biggest 'gear boner' factor, especially once the supplies dry up?

[beetles 1]

Was about to hit the buy button last night but figured I'd give it a day to rest on it. Lo and behold the price of the MD20's just jumped by 10 bucks on MississippiAA so took it as a sign and got one drum, 4 csspecs metal 8 rounders and the tromix trigger guard/g2/reliability kit from CarolinaSS.  That brings the cost of this investment delusion to just shy of $1400. It was easy to tell what the high demand parts are because are pretty much sold out wherever I looked. This stuff seems like it will do the job if it comes down to it and the Saiga siren call turns out to be irresistible. We will see how long I hold out. Thank you fellow enablers.

[forsaken352 235]

Was about to hit the buy button last night but figured I'd give it a day to rest on it. Lo and behold the price of the MD20's just jumped by 10 bucks on MississippiAA so took it as a sign and got one drum, 4 csspecs metal 8 rounders and the tromix trigger guard/g2/reliability kit from CarolinaSS.  That brings the cost of this investment delusion to just shy of $1400. It was easy to tell what the high demand parts are because are pretty much sold out wherever I looked. This stuff seems like it will do the job if it comes down to it and the Saiga siren call turns out to be irresistible. We will see how long I hold out. Thank you fellow enablers.

 

That ought to do it! Nicely done.

[Zippyman 3]

Was about to hit the buy button last night but figured I'd give it a day to rest on it. Lo and behold the price of the MD20's just jumped by 10 bucks on MississippiAA so took it as a sign and got one drum, 4 csspecs metal 8 rounders and the tromix trigger guard/g2/reliability kit from CarolinaSS.  That brings the cost of this investment delusion to just shy of $1400. It was easy to tell what the high demand parts are because are pretty much sold out wherever I looked. This stuff seems like it will do the job if it comes down to it and the Saiga siren call turns out to be irresistible. We will see how long I hold out. Thank you fellow enablers.

 

 

I don't see you getting hurt on that deal - it's all quality stuff purchased at a non-panic price.  And we already know the MD arms drums are gone when they go out of stock - so you have a "legendary" un-bubba'ed Saiga, and a very well-regarded MD arms drum, along with some mags that should be indestructible.     In 2, 5 or 20 years, it'll all be recognizable as good stuff. 

 

If you think about anything that people tend to collect, be it guns or sewing machines or lunchboxes - "step one" is buy the toy & "step two" is collect *all* the goodies that were hot when that item was originally sold..  The holy grail is the gun with the original box, cleaning kit & warranty card, the sewing machine with the 52-piece accessory kit intact, or the lunchbox that still has it's thermos..        

Edited July 28, 2014 by Zippyman

[storm6490 2,768]

Signature conversion so long as it's done by Tac-47 or Tromix. The Tromix will probably appreciate much faster but if you can prove by papers that Tac47 did it, you have a legal conversion done right that people trust. Not some Century Arms slop job.

[sunnybean 939]

During the last great panic it didn't matter who did the conversion, or if the FCG was even moved, as long as it looked "tactical" it would sell for top dollar. Folks were writing in the ad that moving the FCG (to its original/intended location) was somehow making the gun less desirable. As long as you could bolt as many rails as possible on it and throw in some high capacity mags or drums (the shittier the better) it would sell for more money than a simple but professionally converted S12. It was sickening to watch.

[gunman1 1,753]

During the last great panic it didn't matter who did the conversion, or if the FCG was even moved, as long as it looked "tactical" it would sell for top dollar. Folks were writing in the ad that moving the FCG (to its original/intended location) was somehow making the gun less desirable. As long as you could bolt as many rails as possible on it and throw in some high capacity mags or drums (the shittier the better) it would sell for more money than a simple but professionally converted S12. It was sickening to watch.

 

tic-toc tic-toc tic-toc

 

[patriot 7,197]

Screw value. Your kids will just sell it after you die anyhow. Enjoy it.

[Jeffreynmandy 1]

Screw value. Your kids will just sell it after you die anyhow. Enjoy it.

 

This is a smart man. I've seen it first hand.