Shotgunner77 4 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) I am thinking about selling my S12 SBS. Selling an SBS is a big hassle, so I was thinking about permattaching a muzzle device of sufficient lenght and removing it from the registry, and removing the engraving so as to sell it as a title 1 weapon. It has an 11.5" barrel, normal gas system. Runs great w/ heavyier loads as it was over gassed, thoough it doesn't work w/ the cheap bulk pack... Anyway, are there any devices on the market that I could have attached that would bring me up to the correct length? Before my old accont here apparently got purged, I rented a set of guided dies from a guy on here to cut the standard metric muzzle threads. I guess I shoudl volunteer why I am wanting to get out of this SBS game. I have alot in the system and it is a sweet setup, but it has some drawbacks. Primarily, it is just too much of a special purpose weapon for my needs. To begin with, a shotgun is a special purpose weapon generally, as compared to a carbine, a S12 even more so. Ultimately, I have been working to streamline my aresenal so as to be better skilled and equipped in fewer things. Also, the weapon is a little heavy, not to handle, but would be heavy to bear for long. I really apprecaiate compactness and lightness in weapons more and more to make them easier to handle. Also, it recoils a little heavy, ever since I had a whiplash injury. If my neck is feeling good, its at the margins, if not, it can irritate it. Anyway, I would appreciate it if anyone had any imput. The function of the device matters less than its added length. Thx Edited September 7, 2014 by Shotgunner77 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Nemo 882 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 I don't think you can de-register it. Once NFA always NFA. The only way would be to cut the reciever/trunion and send the pics of the destroyed weapon to ATF. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgunner77 4 Posted September 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) yes, you can remove SBR/SBRs from the registry by placing a >16/18" barrel on the unit and sending in a letter. Of this I have no doubt. It may be differnt if it is an SBR that started its life as a pistol, it may not be able to go back to being a non nfa pistol b/c you "manufactured" a rifle from a pistol and you cannot make a rifle from a pistol or some such due to some interpretation of the GCA. I think you are thinking of "once a rifle always a rifle," which if it applies at all anymore, no longer is understood to prohibit a title 1 handgun from being turned into a title 1 rifle and then back to a title 1 handgun. yes, its all stupid. But that a SBR/S, at least one made from a title 1 long gun, can be reconfigured as a title 1 weapon and deregistered is NOT contriversial. I am pretture sure can go from pistol > SBR > to title 1 rifle too. Edited September 7, 2014 by Shotgunner77 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wagnikov 186 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Buy a new barrel. Prob cheaper and faster.http://www.iccmfg.com/saiga.html Then sell your barrel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 this came out a few days ago with some good suggestions http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/95139-sbs-situation/&do=findComment&comment=994574 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgunner77 4 Posted September 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) Buy a new barrel. Prob cheaper and faster.http://www.iccmfg.com/saiga.html Then sell your barrel didn't know there were any barrels on the market. last time I checked, you had to buy a whole gun for many spare parts. I sort of doubt that would be cheaper as I would have to pay someone to do that too, and for a refinish, but it certainly is an option. Thx man, maybe I can just get a reducor coupling and nipple from mcmaster... linear comp lol ETA: nope, not that thread pitch. How about this, recommend a cheap muzzle device that I can have an oversized stub of thin walled pipe welded to its outside. Then the buyer can carefully destroy it when he gets his Form 1 back and put whatever on the threads Edited September 7, 2014 by Shotgunner77 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 I don't think you can de-register it. Once NFA always NFA. The only way would be to cut the reciever/trunion and send the pics of the destroyed weapon to ATF. flase. Just sell it as a sbs,you could maybe find a dealer to buy it. It seems like more trouble to remove it from the NFA than just transfer it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) The only way would be to cut the reciever/trunion and send the pics of the destroyed weapon to ATF. This part of your statement is only relevant to machine guns OP, who built it? Why is it heavy? Edited September 7, 2014 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgunner77 4 Posted September 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 yeah, its not any eavier than any other, its just heavey compared to LW AR builds etc. I had some guy on here do the bolt relief and polishing and duracoat it, weld an extention lever on the safety, move the pistol grip and maybe I think he did something to the back of the reciever so I could attsch a folder to it. Its been a few years since Ive though tabout it. I cut and threaded it myself w/ some dies I rented off the forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 You can remove your Saiga 12 SBS from the NFA rolls. I did with the 5 year old NIB S12 19" still sitting in the gun safe. However, in my case, the barrel was NEVER CUT BACK. Still 19". Long had the tax stamp to SBS the thing, but it was to have been "her gun" and that $female relationship$ did not work out at all. In your case, you will have to prove to the august ATF guys that the barrel has been permanently restored to at least 18.1" or so. How this would be done is beyond me. Maybe you could just weld on an extension. I also do not know about any engraving on the barrel. Mine used the receiver serial number on the tax stamp. Just call up West Virginia. (I think) Some help here on the correct phone number. Ask how to remove your S12 SBS from the rolls. They will tell you how. Again, proof will have to be documented. A specific format of attaching the barrel extension shroud will have to be followed. Good luck. HB of CJ (old coot) I even got my $200 bucks back. Probably because the S12 was never sawed off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgunner77 4 Posted September 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 lol, you got your $200 back! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgunner77 4 Posted September 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 so, w/ the deregistration letter, I guess I woudl send in a work order/invoice form the smith stating that he had pinned/welded the extensions on the muzzle and verified the length? the engraving, I just used the mfg SN and I put my trust name no there. I woudl be able to remove my trust name right? The original mfg & importer roll marks are still on there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 Have the work done first, then send a signed and dated letter to the NFA Branch stating that you have permanently attached a barrel extension to 18+" and you want it removed from the NFA registry. They do not need to see receipts or pics. Provide a legible copy of the form 1 or form 4 that it is on. If there is a problem with it, they will let you know. If not, they will send you a nice letter stating that they appreciate your assistance in maintaining the accuracy of the NFA registry and so on. Keep the letter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 About the only thing I might add is too perhaps make contact with the ATF FIRST and ask them what to do and how to do it. Then I would get something in WRITING from them BEFORE messing with your SBS. Then when you get it in writing, then weld and pin on the aforementioned long barrel extension to make it at least 18.1" long. I do not know if pics are required. Perhaps just a descriptive letter. The reason for all the silly procedure is that you are dealing with an agency who is comparable to a 600 pound Gorilla. Good days, bad days. You do not want that Gorilla sitting on you because he wants too. Registered mail, return receipt. Make and keep copies with a diary log of events. Who you talked to, what was said, copies of letters. Cover your ass. If all of this is done, then perhaps you can "de NFA roll" your SBS. It gets even worserer. Keep a copy of the de NFA registry letter and a copy of the tax stamp with the big CANCELED stamped across it. That letter will probably have to follow the Saiga 12 around for the life of the shotgun. The reason for that is to show that the ATF has removed your former SBS from the NFA rolls. Such documentation may actually increase the perceived value of the Saiga shotgun. Pure bullshit procedure, but that is the way it is. HB of CJ (old coot) You may NOT get your #200 bucks back. The barrel was cut. It might also just be easier and less time consuming to sell the SBS as is for a loss. That is probably the easiest thing to do. Sorry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html#removal-from-nfa Lots of good reading in that link folks. Below are the parts (copied and pasted, aka spoon fed) that specifically apply to the OP's situation. To condense it, the moment it is permed to 18+" it is no longer a Title II firearm and no longer under the purview of the NFA. No, the OP will not get his money back. That only happens when the item remained in Title I configuration and was never in Title II configuration (with a short barrel). There is no requirement to notify the ATF of the change to Title I configuration. However, read and consider what the ATF recommends. Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change? Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS. Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm? There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgunner77 4 Posted September 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 hey evlblkwpnz, I see you are in Jax too, hello. thx for posting that useful info. Yeah, so I get to keep the stamp, I would keep it w/ the letter from the ATF thanking me for notifying them and receipt of the work order describing the gun having been de SBR'd and maybe a pic w/ the permmattach, and, of course, a bill of sale to the guy I sell it too to cover my ass in case it turnes up in a crime scene some day, especially it it were re-SBR'd. I just cannot come up w/ the 6.6" I need to do it. The longest muzzle device is like 5" right? Add one of those muzzle choke extender things and that gives me like an extra inch... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted September 9, 2014 Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 Small world, lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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