We need US made bolts

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

OK. Everyone on the forum that has machining capabilities. Can you fabricate bolt assemblies from scratch. We need sources for US bolt assemblies. I don't have the skills or equipment to make them but I know some of you may be able to.

 

It is time we get our collective network off our asses and do something to oppose the ban. What better way than to copy Russia and build the parts ourselves.

[james lambert 3,059]

I cant make them cheap like russia can

[Mullet Man 2,114]

I cant make them cheap like russia can

Well Russia can't import them and RD doesn't care about cheap so you might could have a horse in this race.

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

the problem I see in something like that,  is that there is such a tiny and insignificant market, that it wouldn't be worth investing the money and time into making something like that, unless your object is to lose money on that venture  and not make any.   

[james lambert 3,059]

did they import them when they could?

The only way we could do it would be machined from bar stock.

 

ill look into it

[Mullet Man 2,114]

did they import them when they could?

The only way we could do it would be machined from bar stock.

 

ill look into it

Kvar would sporadically have them in stock along with Bulgarian bolts but rarely and in limited quantities. They always sold out quick.

[james lambert 3,059]

You need a bar fed cnc turning center with live tooling and Y axis and it would take some mill work as well

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Well being the "Crapamount Fury" amounts to precisely DICK, and the majority of US gun enthusiast are all about MADE IN USA, I can see a future in semi loading box fed magazine shot gun. Don't believe me? Google "black aces tactical". If you build it, they will come.

[james lambert 3,059]

Well being the "Crapamount Fury" amounts to precisely DICK, and the majority of US gun enthusiast are all about MADE IN USA, I can see a future in semi loading box fed magazine shot gun. Don't believe me? Google "black aces tactical". If you build it, they will come.

Really 

look at firebird

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Problem with firebird, and the MKA1919 was magazine capacity, and reliability.  These were mods for a Turkish made gun that wasn't exactly DIY ready. Majority of US gun enthusiast want out of the box perfection with modular components for customizing. We here in the US have the facilities to produce shot gun barrel blanks, Rifle Dynamics is building ak parts, whats a few 12 gauge parts added in the mix, veruses being able to put benelli and remmington on their perspective shelves? We (the saiga enthusiast) have already figured out the formulae for gasports, and bolt contours/ profile to make them run 100% with bird shot. Tac47 built an auto plug to make ammo changes an autonomous feature..only thing missing is US made chasse. Yea start up is a lot of $$, but pay off I think would be profitable.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

What we really need is one of the big players to design and market the hell out of a rimless or semi-rimmed shotgun shell so that doublestack magazines are easy to make and feeding in general is less of a pain in the ass.

A non-proprietary 12-gauge shell and a small line of sporting shotguns that used them would be a great start.

We're basically shoehorning a cartridge that's been around since the 1870s into a modern high-tech shotgun - because that cartridge is plentiful, not because it's particularly suited to the purpose.

[james lambert 3,059]

What we really need is one of the big players to design and market the hell out of a rimless or semi-rimmed shotgun shell so that doublestack magazines are easy to make and feeding in general is less of a pain in the ass.

 

A non-proprietary 12-gauge shell and a small line of sporting shotguns that used them would be a great start.

We're basically shoehorning a cartridge that's been around since the 1870s into a modern high-tech shotgun - because that cartridge is plentiful, not because it's particularly suited to the purpose.

Thats already been done   but the shells are a couple bucks each

[Long Shot 1,287]

[Eric Pate 478]

There will always be about a century of lag with commercial fixed-casing ammunition technology because consumers demand reverse compatibility in their firearms. Thats the only reason 12-gauge and .22 is still being made to 100-year-old specs, both are horribly outdated cartridge designs by modern standards.

 

Change will only come when the benefits will obviously outweigh the compatibility issue, as with the development of .45 ACP and 7.62x51NATO.

[HB of CJ 1,263]

Any practical 20 year business plan would be shaky. Even a 10 year plan would leave many practical economic and political questions not answered. Right now firearms and ammo are a good example of a temporary "bubble". How long will the bubble last?

 

About 6 years ago I tried to get Saiga critical spare parts made in SW Oregon. No go. Too little market. The quoted price for a 90% finished S308 bolt was $500 each. Then it would have to be fitted, lapped and head spaced. Same with S12 bolts. Yikes!

 

Right now the firearms industry is doing great. That may change. Political legislation in the future is very hard to predict. The industry is already heavily regulated. This will get worse. Sad to say this, but the future does not look good. Just me. HB of CJ (old coot)

[Shandlanos 1,470]

I'm familiar with that stupid proprietary shell.

If it were open source and anybody could make it, it might catch on - especially if it caught the attention of one of the big players and a wider variety of firearms were made to accommodate it.

A semi-rimmed shell might be ideal - you could still headspace it off the rim, negating the need for a shoulder, but it would still feed well in a double-stack mag. Such a shell, using the same priming system and same internal dimensions as a standard 12-gauge shell, would be easy to reload - all you'd need is a new shell holders. If you could use the same wads, shot cups, primers, etc. - hell, there might even be a way to design it to be somewhat reverse compatible, maybe with a replacement extractor. I dunno.

[james lambert 3,059]

All the pump and tube fed autos rely on the rim IE feed latch, interceptor latch ect.

so they would not be compatible with existing guns.

 

a semi rim like a 38 super would work but its still a rim why go half way

 

just make the base consistent and headspace on the mouth of the base.

so no high brass low brass, just a consistent height using conventional plastic bodies.

 I doubt any munitions manufacturer would pick it up, but it would be pretty straight forward

[Shandlanos 1,470]

All the pump and tube fed autos rely on the rim IE feed latch, interceptor latch ect.

so they would not be compatible with existing guns.

 

a semi rim like a 38 super would work but its still a rim why go half way

 

just make the base consistent and headspace on the mouth of the base.

so no high brass low brass, just a consistent height using conventional plastic bodies.

 I doubt any munitions manufacturer would pick it up, but it would be pretty straight forward

Fair enough - that's more than I knew about the feed systems of tube guns.

 

My thought on semi-rimless are definitely defeated by that - no point. I think you're right that no big munitions manufacturer would pick it up, and if someone invested in a batch (like Tony Rumore did to launch the .458 Socom) it would be unlikely that it would pay off in the short run, and iffy even in the long wrong. Without a line of firearms on the market launching around the same time that takes the new ammunition, very few people would be interested.

 

If someone invested enough to say, fund a custom batch of break-action guns from NEF (or just barrels for those actions), a custom pump gun from some other company - hell, maybe even a cheap Chinese-made pump gun, plus one double-stack mag-fed semi-auto shotgun - hell, there might be a market.

 

If I win the lottery tomorrow I'll pump a few million into getting the idea off the ground

[csspecs 1,987]

What we really need is one of the big players to design and market the hell out of a rimless or semi-rimmed shotgun shell so that doublestack magazines are easy to make and feeding in general is less of a pain in the ass.

 

A non-proprietary 12-gauge shell and a small line of sporting shotguns that used them would be a great start.

We're basically shoehorning a cartridge that's been around since the 1870s into a modern high-tech shotgun - because that cartridge is plentiful, not because it's particularly suited to the purpose.

 

Honestly, I can probably make a double stack to feed rimmed shotgun shells. What is almost impossible is going from double stack to single stack. If you want it to work well, it has to be double stack at the top as well.

 

A double stack shotgun just needs a stupidly wide receiver. To get the magazine size measure three shotgun shells stacked up and measure across the rims, then add .20" so I have space for metal for the magazine...  I'd guess the receiver would have to be better than 2.5" wide.. Which is going to be a little tricky to hold since its going to look like a grenade launcher with a skinny barrel.

 

 

The below is something I wanted to develop as a product, but honestly I don't have the ability to make it happen.

 

If you want to make a new shotgun round, a great start would probably be cutting down .50 bmg cases. They are about 3" to the shoulder and would provide enough space for a decent loading. Ideally one could contract with a brass manufacturer and have them alter the forming steps to make the case walls thicker to provide a larger surface for head space. Use of a cone shaped nose to guide the shell, with the nose linked to the wad and the wad tight enough to hold the whole mess together inside the brass case without crimping.

 

No it would not work in tube guns. unless they are made for it..

 

Case dimensions of a normal 12 gauge

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Shotshell/12-gauge%202_3-4.pdf

 

Case dimensions of a .50bmg are about half way down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG

 

 

The .50bmg is about .005" smaller than a 12 gauge shell at the base.. Its actually really close to perfect, the primer pocket on the .50bmg is also kinda huge. But once its out of prototyping its probably possible to get the cases made with a smaller primer pocket or to switch to plastic with a metal base.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

I see what you're saying about about being a super wide receiver - for rimmed shells. But all those problems going from double to single stack go away when you go to a rimless shell.

If you were to design a shotgun that used a double-stack mag that did not then come to single feed at the top - the only section of the receiver that would have to be that wide would be the magazine well, and it could taper inward toward the barrel to act like a feed ramp on either side - since the bolt just strips right from the center. Not really that much different from any beltfed firearm - the feed tray is substantially wider than the rest of the receiver.

I've seen .50BMG shells cut down to make dummy/prop rounds - there's a whole row of them on the stock of the modified Saiga-12 in Firefly - Jayne's "Vera." But I've never seen someone try to make shotshells out of them. Are the internal dimensions close enough that you could use 12-gauge wads, shot cups, etc.?

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

Well that went sideways quick. WE STILL US MADE BOLTS.