STILL not cycling light loads

[OmegaX 5]

So, I made the D-mod to the gas block (which, I found out afterward is probably not good). I have a TAC-47 auto-plug, and the CSS puck in it. I took it out to tune the auto-plug with a variety of loads, and no matter how tight I cranked down the auto-plug, it wouldn't cycle the light loads. The really strange thing is that when I popped in in some 2 3/4 high-brass hunting loads, it was pitching the hulls disturbingly far (It took about 2 rounds to make that conclusion. I'm pretty sure 20+ feet isn't good).  Can it simultaneously be under and over-gassed? 

 

My current plan is to try the 6-position plug with the same loads, but does anyone have any other ideas? 

 

I'm really regretting hacking up the gas block, now. I have made zero progress. It always would cycle heavier stuff. I dialed the plug way back, and fired probably 100 other shells, and I think I see some new dings in the puck. I'm not overly concerned, but it's a bit of a bummer.

[DavidQ 170]

Since you have done the d mod and such, try going back to factory parts with the puck and gas plug and try them one at a time to see what helps. Sounds strange to say that all the mods wouldn't help but some actually hurt cycling.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

So, I made the D-mod to the gas block (which, I found out afterward is probably not good). I have a TAC-47 auto-plug, and the CSS puck in it. I took it out to tune the auto-plug with a variety of loads, and no matter how tight I cranked down the auto-plug, it wouldn't cycle the light loads. The really strange thing is that when I popped in in some 2 3/4 high-brass hunting loads, it was pitching the hulls disturbingly far (It took about 2 rounds to make that conclusion. I'm pretty sure 20+ feet isn't good).  Can it simultaneously be under and over-gassed? 

 

My current plan is to try the 6-position plug with the same loads, but does anyone have any other ideas? 

 

I'm really regretting hacking up the gas block, now. I have made zero progress. It always would cycle heavier stuff. I dialed the plug way back, and fired probably 100 other shells, and I think I see some new dings in the puck. I'm not overly concerned, but it's a bit of a bummer.

Put your factory puck back in it and try it with the factory regulator.

Secondly, you need to specify what loads you are using. High brass/low brass means absolutely Dick when referencing shot payload, speed or power. You could easily be using two different loads at the very extreme ends of the 12g shot shell spectrum and we wouldn't know the difference without actual shell specs.

Thirds, are you by chance using some quad rail or tri rail hand guard?

Fourth, what FCG are you using? If 3pc aftermarket, did you address the hammer issue?

 

Lastly the D mod is not a hack job no matter how bad some so called self proclaimed professionals wanna say it is. It is a DIY modification that works, period! Those so called professionals have no argument to contradict the fact that it works, only that it is overkill, which in the real world is a moot point because it is a modification that works. Read any other threads arguing the D mod in favor of or against and you'll see no fact from the naysayers, only terms like "stupid" and "dumb". So please get the thought out of your head that the D mod is a bad modification. Anyone who cares to refute my argument, please point out some fact or a thread showing factual points made, please.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Mullet Man

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Alright try and forget for a minute that I make my living making Saiga 12s and Veprs run reliably on everything you feed them pretty much.

 

Now that we have that out of the way, please try and think of what I'm about to say  NOT as a sales pitch, but rather as excellent advice from someone who knows from years and years of experience fixing this very problem. It really is that common after conversion.

 

Put the original gas plug and original puck in there and try it on the #2 setting. If that does not fix it then your gun most likely is being held back by too much friction and / or is under gassed.

 

 What you can do if you want it done right and want to be certain the work performed was as good as it gets, is send the bolt, bolt carrier, and FCG to Cobra's Custom and when it comes back in a couple weeks or less, your gun will probably cycle light loads with no problem at all, and possibly even the cheapest crap loads from Winchester.

 

 If that doesn't do it then your gun probably has way undersized gas ports or a serious issue of some other kind.

BLa bla bla D mod hack bla bla mullet. Just let it go already jesus fucking christ dude. 

[gunman1 1,753]

                               

[spaniel 7]

Have you profiled the hammer and polished the appropriate surfaces?  When new my S12 would not cycle anything lighter than very stiff 2-3/4" loads.  After profiling the hammer and removing friction from the system, it has not missed a cycle since.

 

If your ports are open, your issue is most likely friction.  If you are handy enough to convert an S12 you are handy enough to fix it yourself.  If you are not, there are those who will happily fix it for a price.

[lsxevo 9]

Op, in regards to the "D mod"....... That particular mod is for obstructed gas ports wether they be factory size or enlarged. Really doesn't matter which shape or direction in which you enlarge the gas block hole as long as it removes any obstructions around the gas ports. You probably have undersized gas ports and/or gas port obstructions from the gas block it you didn't notch it out correctly. These two issues cause 99% of all cycling issues. Cobra Customs reprofile and polish of the internals will definitely give you some good help on making the gun cycle better. But, at the end of the day the root cause is probably the gas system. Good luck!

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

The gas system is actually a lot less of a problem than most people think.  I've seen lots of S-12s run fine on low brass after getting used enough to work some lube into the action. Sure if ports are blocked or too small that is a problem, but the biggest thing that makes the majority of them fail is when people start adding parts to it that it doesn't need, and especially when they convert the weapon to PG and put in an FCG that was designed to work in an AK rifle. That would be a lot closer to that 99% mark than gas problems.

 The very FIRST thing people should be doing when they convert the gun is pay special attention to removing all the excess friction, before they ever buy a shitload of gas system and other mods like quad rails, domestic mags, etc etc. Remove all the wasted energy probs and get it where it will run with the gas system and other parts it came with. THEN start upgrading with all that other shit.

[Wagnikov 186]

How many ports, and what size?

[goldenpony 61]

I suggest you listen carefully to Cobra's Custom. He helped me out a great deal. I was using after market stuff like the auto plug and fancy pucks.

He patiently explained to me what I should be doing. I sent my internals to him for polishing and re-profiling. My Saiga now runs like a bad ass Russsian bear using just factory parts. 

 This man knows these guns.

Edited September 22, 2014 by goldenpony

[Wagnikov 186]

Agree with cobra on proper profile on hammer and friction mods first. I do over-kill the gas on the on a gun I will run an autoplug in tho. But that's not for everyone.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

 

So, I made the D-mod to the gas block (which, I found out afterward is probably not good). I have a TAC-47 auto-plug, and the CSS puck in it. I took it out to tune the auto-plug with a variety of loads, and no matter how tight I cranked down the auto-plug, it wouldn't cycle the light loads. The really strange thing is that when I popped in in some 2 3/4 high-brass hunting loads, it was pitching the hulls disturbingly far (It took about 2 rounds to make that conclusion. I'm pretty sure 20+ feet isn't good).  Can it simultaneously be under and over-gassed? 

 

My current plan is to try the 6-position plug with the same loads, but does anyone have any other ideas? 

 

I'm really regretting hacking up the gas block, now. I have made zero progress. It always would cycle heavier stuff. I dialed the plug way back, and fired probably 100 other shells, and I think I see some new dings in the puck. I'm not overly concerned, but it's a bit of a bummer.

Put your factory puck back in it and try it with the factory regulator.

Secondly, you need to specify what loads you are using. High brass/low brass means absolutely Dick when referencing shot payload, speed or power. You could easily be using two different loads at the very extreme ends of the 12g shot shell spectrum and we wouldn't know the difference without actual shell specs.

Thirds, are you by chance using some quad rail or tri rail hand guard?

Fourth, what FCG are you using? If 3pc aftermarket, did you address the hammer issue?

 

Lastly the D mod is not a hack job no matter how bad some so called self proclaimed professionals wanna say it is. It is a DIY modification that works, period! Those so called professionals have no argument to contradict the fact that it works, only that it is overkill, which in the real world is a moot point because it is a modification that works. Read any other threads arguing the D mod in favor of or against and you'll see no fact from the naysayers, only terms like "stupid" and "dumb". So please get the thought out of your head that the D mod is a bad modification. Anyone who cares to refute my argument, please point out some fact or a thread showing factual points made, please.

 

Truth....

 

If the person performing it goes too far, which isn't hard to do working on round shit with a square file, fouling will be increased in the shoulder of the gas block because it has been compromised and the threads of the gas regulator will foul quicker as a result. When this happens, the likelihood of the gas regulator getting stuck is increased. When the gas block is removed from the barrel, the shadow (carbon) on the barrel at the ports will show exactly where material needs to be removed from the port orifice of the gas block to allow clear flow from the port. This stuff is not rocket science and there is no need to go hog wild with a flat file when all that needs to be done is to bevel slightly with a rounded file at the position of the obstructed port. The D mod is pure ignorance, that is undeniably true. Show me one noteworthy Saiga 12 specialist that does the D mod and I will show you someone who should do something else for a living.

 

For the record, Cobra deserves some respect here. He has given what likely amounts to weeks or months worth of his life to help people here. Show me another business member at this site who has spent as much time helping here for no personal gain, just one.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

 

 

So, I made the D-mod to the gas block (which, I found out afterward is probably not good). I have a TAC-47 auto-plug, and the CSS puck in it. I took it out to tune the auto-plug with a variety of loads, and no matter how tight I cranked down the auto-plug, it wouldn't cycle the light loads. The really strange thing is that when I popped in in some 2 3/4 high-brass hunting loads, it was pitching the hulls disturbingly far (It took about 2 rounds to make that conclusion. I'm pretty sure 20+ feet isn't good).  Can it simultaneously be under and over-gassed? 

 

My current plan is to try the 6-position plug with the same loads, but does anyone have any other ideas? 

 

I'm really regretting hacking up the gas block, now. I have made zero progress. It always would cycle heavier stuff. I dialed the plug way back, and fired probably 100 other shells, and I think I see some new dings in the puck. I'm not overly concerned, but it's a bit of a bummer.

Put your factory puck back in it and try it with the factory regulator.

Secondly, you need to specify what loads you are using. High brass/low brass means absolutely Dick when referencing shot payload, speed or power. You could easily be using two different loads at the very extreme ends of the 12g shot shell spectrum and we wouldn't know the difference without actual shell specs.

Thirds, are you by chance using some quad rail or tri rail hand guard?

Fourth, what FCG are you using? If 3pc aftermarket, did you address the hammer issue?

 

Lastly the D mod is not a hack job no matter how bad some so called self proclaimed professionals wanna say it is. It is a DIY modification that works, period! Those so called professionals have no argument to contradict the fact that it works, only that it is overkill, which in the real world is a moot point because it is a modification that works. Read any other threads arguing the D mod in favor of or against and you'll see no fact from the naysayers, only terms like "stupid" and "dumb". So please get the thought out of your head that the D mod is a bad modification. Anyone who cares to refute my argument, please point out some fact or a thread showing factual points made, please.

 

Truth....

 

If the person performing it goes too far, which isn't hard to do working on round shit with a square file, fouling will be increased in the shoulder of the gas block because it has been compromised and the threads of the gas regulator will foul quicker as a result. When this happens, the likelihood of the gas regulator getting stuck is increased. When the gas block is removed from the barrel, the shadow (carbon) on the barrel at the ports will show exactly where material needs to be removed from the port orifice of the gas block to allow clear flow from the port. This stuff is not rocket science and there is no need to go hog wild with a flat file when all that needs to be done is to bevel slightly with a rounded file at the position of the obstructed port. The D mod is pure ignorance, that is undeniably true. Show me one noteworthy Saiga 12 specialist that does the D mod and I will show you someone who should do something else for a living.

 

For the record, Cobra deserves some respect here. He has given what likely amounts to weeks or months worth of his life to help people here. Show me another business member at this site who has spent as much time helping here for no personal gain, just one.

 

 

 

You're wasting your breath trying to talk sense to that dolt bro. He has a personal problem and ego far bigger than his IQ so he can go the way of his hero Pauly for all I care. I'm not even trying any more to get him to understand. He only wants to argue. You can lead a horse to water but ya can't make him drink. What really sucks though is every time someone like that makes such idiotic statements the noobs that come along later & read that shit take it as the gospel. These guns don't grow on trees and they are not cheap any more. Ridiculously bad advice leading people to fuck up these now un-importable weapons really does need to be stricken from these pages and archives if this forum is going to maintain any level of respect. It's pathetic the kind of shit I see even coming through my shop and for now all I get through here is parts. I can only imagine the kind of crazy shit some of the custom builders here have to deal with because of the dumb shit people "learned" on this forum and tried to "DIY".

 

  When people always see me chiming in to these SAME OLD QUESTIONS ABOUT THE VERY SAME OLD ISSUES and telling them what they really seriously should do before buying ONE THING extra for their weapon, they seriously do need to wake up and look past the fact that I sell these modifications as a business and service to the community. (Umm I would not be doing this for going on 8 years now unless I know WTF I'm talking about...) Just see any advice I post for exactly what it is, plain old FACTS, whether you hire me to fix the problems or not. I'll just say it IS in your best interest to let a pro handle it because until you have actually done it or even seen and felt upclose what the best results are really like, you honestly have no clue what is involved. ("Polishing a turd does no good at all, it's all about the profile and the AMOUNT of steel removed.)  Many times I've let myself get pissed off at comments by this one asshole and many who he has run with (ironically?), and it caused me to say fuck it and stop trying to help people here. I always end up coming back though and been doing it for ten straight years, even through life's worst hardships I've been dealt. Yeah give a brother some damn respect alright.

 

 Evl you sure got that one right buddy and actually it's more like months to years not weeks to months. This is my 17,525th post on this forum alone. Thousands of these posts were giving hard learned advice for free and the majority included detailed photos and links. Also if you counted the number of those which were Topics I started, not just trolled or replied to like his, you would see a very large number. God only knows how many PMs and phone calls I've spent my own time on too. While I'm tootin' my own horn I'll mention one more thing then I'm outa here. When I was on staff here as a Moderator, long before I ever made one dime as a business member, I actually did help to build this forum and get it setup to the bigger more organized place it is now. Anyone who's gone back and read the archives knows this. Hell I even wrote the first draft of the forum RULES myself. There's a lot more than just a business that keeps me coming back here.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

 

 

So, I made the D-mod to the gas block (which, I found out afterward is probably not good). I have a TAC-47 auto-plug, and the CSS puck in it. I took it out to tune the auto-plug with a variety of loads, and no matter how tight I cranked down the auto-plug, it wouldn't cycle the light loads. The really strange thing is that when I popped in in some 2 3/4 high-brass hunting loads, it was pitching the hulls disturbingly far (It took about 2 rounds to make that conclusion. I'm pretty sure 20+ feet isn't good).  Can it simultaneously be under and over-gassed? 

 

My current plan is to try the 6-position plug with the same loads, but does anyone have any other ideas? 

 

I'm really regretting hacking up the gas block, now. I have made zero progress. It always would cycle heavier stuff. I dialed the plug way back, and fired probably 100 other shells, and I think I see some new dings in the puck. I'm not overly concerned, but it's a bit of a bummer.

Put your factory puck back in it and try it with the factory regulator.

Secondly, you need to specify what loads you are using. High brass/low brass means absolutely Dick when referencing shot payload, speed or power. You could easily be using two different loads at the very extreme ends of the 12g shot shell spectrum and we wouldn't know the difference without actual shell specs.

Thirds, are you by chance using some quad rail or tri rail hand guard?

Fourth, what FCG are you using? If 3pc aftermarket, did you address the hammer issue?

 

Lastly the D mod is not a hack job no matter how bad some so called self proclaimed professionals wanna say it is. It is a DIY modification that works, period! Those so called professionals have no argument to contradict the fact that it works, only that it is overkill, which in the real world is a moot point because it is a modification that works. Read any other threads arguing the D mod in favor of or against and you'll see no fact from the naysayers, only terms like "stupid" and "dumb". So please get the thought out of your head that the D mod is a bad modification. Anyone who cares to refute my argument, please point out some fact or a thread showing factual points made, please.

 

Truth....

 

If the person performing it goes too far, which isn't hard to do working on round shit with a square file, fouling will be increased in the shoulder of the gas block because it has been compromised and the threads of the gas regulator will foul quicker as a result. When this happens, the likelihood of the gas regulator getting stuck is increased. When the gas block is removed from the barrel, the shadow (carbon) on the barrel at the ports will show exactly where material needs to be removed from the port orifice of the gas block to allow clear flow from the port. This stuff is not rocket science and there is no need to go hog wild with a flat file when all that needs to be done is to bevel slightly with a rounded file at the position of the obstructed port. The D mod is pure ignorance, that is undeniably true. Show me one noteworthy Saiga 12 specialist that does the D mod and I will show you someone who should do something else for a living.

 

For the record, Cobra deserves some respect here. He has given what likely amounts to weeks or months worth of his life to help people here. Show me another business member at this site who has spent as much time helping here for no personal gain, just one.

 

Few questions...

Does the "D" mod work at aiding in the overall reliability of a Saiga12?

Is the modification 'dangerous'?

Does the gas block or gas system in general, care how the gas port window is shaped?

Have you seen or read of any Saiga12 that was left in worse operating condition because of a "D" shaped window?

 

 

My debate is perceived (poorly) as arguing by some, when I've only ever asked for an explanation to counter my stance and have only been given emotional responses or possibilities (links are available to back that up). For instance the shoulder needing to be left alone because it seals the gas system when the regulator is threaded in. It doesn't. Or the fluid dynamics argument of how the expanding gases act inside the gas block with relation to the shoulder and recessed ring and the increased chamber volume because the aforementioned "gas block shoulder, to gas regulator seal" was now compromised, really? How could anyone believe any of that to be true when there is no proof of non functioning guns after the fact. Wouldn't it be a reoccurring topic seen on this forum regarding non functioning or poorly performing guns after doing the work? Surely we would have read about it over and over by now, this is the S12 motherland after all.   

Edited September 22, 2014 by Mullet Man

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

 

 

 

So, I made the D-mod to the gas block (which, I found out afterward is probably not good). I have a TAC-47 auto-plug, and the CSS puck in it. I took it out to tune the auto-plug with a variety of loads, and no matter how tight I cranked down the auto-plug, it wouldn't cycle the light loads. The really strange thing is that when I popped in in some 2 3/4 high-brass hunting loads, it was pitching the hulls disturbingly far (It took about 2 rounds to make that conclusion. I'm pretty sure 20+ feet isn't good).  Can it simultaneously be under and over-gassed? 

 

My current plan is to try the 6-position plug with the same loads, but does anyone have any other ideas? 

 

I'm really regretting hacking up the gas block, now. I have made zero progress. It always would cycle heavier stuff. I dialed the plug way back, and fired probably 100 other shells, and I think I see some new dings in the puck. I'm not overly concerned, but it's a bit of a bummer.

Put your factory puck back in it and try it with the factory regulator.

Secondly, you need to specify what loads you are using. High brass/low brass means absolutely Dick when referencing shot payload, speed or power. You could easily be using two different loads at the very extreme ends of the 12g shot shell spectrum and we wouldn't know the difference without actual shell specs.

Thirds, are you by chance using some quad rail or tri rail hand guard?

Fourth, what FCG are you using? If 3pc aftermarket, did you address the hammer issue?

 

Lastly the D mod is not a hack job no matter how bad some so called self proclaimed professionals wanna say it is. It is a DIY modification that works, period! Those so called professionals have no argument to contradict the fact that it works, only that it is overkill, which in the real world is a moot point because it is a modification that works. Read any other threads arguing the D mod in favor of or against and you'll see no fact from the naysayers, only terms like "stupid" and "dumb". So please get the thought out of your head that the D mod is a bad modification. Anyone who cares to refute my argument, please point out some fact or a thread showing factual points made, please.

 

Truth....

 

If the person performing it goes too far, which isn't hard to do working on round shit with a square file, fouling will be increased in the shoulder of the gas block because it has been compromised and the threads of the gas regulator will foul quicker as a result. When this happens, the likelihood of the gas regulator getting stuck is increased. When the gas block is removed from the barrel, the shadow (carbon) on the barrel at the ports will show exactly where material needs to be removed from the port orifice of the gas block to allow clear flow from the port. This stuff is not rocket science and there is no need to go hog wild with a flat file when all that needs to be done is to bevel slightly with a rounded file at the position of the obstructed port. The D mod is pure ignorance, that is undeniably true. Show me one noteworthy Saiga 12 specialist that does the D mod and I will show you someone who should do something else for a living.

 

For the record, Cobra deserves some respect here. He has given what likely amounts to weeks or months worth of his life to help people here. Show me another business member at this site who has spent as much time helping here for no personal gain, just one.

 

Few questions...

Does the "D" mod work at aiding in the overall reliability of a Saiga12? It can if the obstructed port/ports are at the front of the port orifice. It does nothing for ports that are obstructed at the sides or rear of the orifice.

Is the modification 'dangerous'? As in the potential for physical injury? No. However, I will say that if I were looking at a used Saiga 12 and it had that done to it, what I would be willing to pay for it would be less, significantly less if the shoulder had been compromised or if it looked to be taken the point of being remotely close to compromised.

Does the gas block or gas system in general, care how the gas port window is shaped? They don't think and therefore don't care, but I know what you are attempting to convey. In general (literally), yes. Note the flat forward edge and grooves in the puck and the fact that it is not interference fit with the gas block and there is some degree, however minimal, of transverse puck movement in the gas block. Is it a huge deal in regards to the to the puck? Not really, but leaving the forward edge of the orifice straight in line with the face and grooves of the puck, sharp, and rough can wear the puck quicker than a round hole will.

Have you seen or read of any Saiga12 that was left in worse operating condition because of a "D" shaped window? As far as operating, no. As far as ease of maintenance and adjustment of the gas system, yes.

 

 

My debate is perceived (poorly) as arguing by some, when I've only ever asked for an explanation to counter my stance and have only been given emotional responses or possibilities (links are available to back that up). For instance the shoulder needing to be left alone because it seals the gas system when the regulator is threaded in. It doesn't. Or the fluid dynamics argument of how the expanding gases act inside the gas block with relation to the shoulder and recessed ring and the increased chamber volume because the aforementioned "gas block shoulder, to gas regulator seal" was now compromised, really? It isn't sealed there, but leaving the shoulder intact at least keeps the debris from blowing straight in. How could anyone believe any of that to be true when there is no proof of non functioning guns after the fact. It isn't about functioning, it is about not doing things that promote fouling at the regulator. Wouldn't it be a reoccurring topic seen on this forum regarding non functioning or poorly performing guns after doing the work? Surely we would have read about it over and over by now, this is the S12 motherland after all. Just because something is mentioned or not, does not attest to validity or a lack of validity. If something is not mentioned on the news, does that mean it didn't happen or it is a non-issue?

 

The point is the D mod is less than ideal and can cause issues that can be avoided by doing the same operation a different way, even quicker, with less metal removed, and without promoting fouling at the regulator.

 

Have you ever read the definitions of "self proclaimed" and "professional". It isn't hard to be a professional and very little about that word implies true skill, talent, or ability to successfully operate in their field. One can be a professional and absolutely fail in their field of endeavor.

 

If you like, prefer, and want to promote the D mod then that is your choice. It is my choice to steer people away from it for legitimate reasons.

[OmegaX 5]

Sorry to stir the pot, again, gents, but thank you for your opinions!

 

I haven't forgotten about the thread.  I'm just working on reprofiling the hammer and polishing the bolt and rails. I'm going to make it shine! I'm hoping to have it done by this weekend to get out and shoot it again.  I'm planning on running the factory puck and gas plug, but I'm going to bring the CSS puck, 6-position plug, and the auto-plug along. 

 

To answer Mullet Man's questions: I do have a SGM tri-rail, though I'm not sure I still have the factory hand guard. It doesn't seem to contact anything, but I've found some of this stuff can be counter-intuitive. I've been wrong before. I have the Tapco FCG. I had NOT done anything to the hammer... I do get the feeling that I really underestimated the role friction is playing.

 

When I get this all settled, I'm going to write a post about this noob's journey.  I'm an experienced gun guy and a solid tinkerer, but this thing has been pretty humbling!

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Don't let it scare you. It is only metal. It is great to bring extra parts to try and see what happens. If it fails as it, the CSS puck should give it a little extra boost. It adds a little to the stroke of the piston by letting it project into the rear of the gas block on its rearward travel. Let us know how it goes and what worked for you.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

 

 

 

 

So, I made the D-mod to the gas block (which, I found out afterward is probably not good). I have a TAC-47 auto-plug, and the CSS puck in it. I took it out to tune the auto-plug with a variety of loads, and no matter how tight I cranked down the auto-plug, it wouldn't cycle the light loads. The really strange thing is that when I popped in in some 2 3/4 high-brass hunting loads, it was pitching the hulls disturbingly far (It took about 2 rounds to make that conclusion. I'm pretty sure 20+ feet isn't good).  Can it simultaneously be under and over-gassed? 

 

My current plan is to try the 6-position plug with the same loads, but does anyone have any other ideas? 

 

I'm really regretting hacking up the gas block, now. I have made zero progress. It always would cycle heavier stuff. I dialed the plug way back, and fired probably 100 other shells, and I think I see some new dings in the puck. I'm not overly concerned, but it's a bit of a bummer.

Put your factory puck back in it and try it with the factory regulator.

Secondly, you need to specify what loads you are using. High brass/low brass means absolutely Dick when referencing shot payload, speed or power. You could easily be using two different loads at the very extreme ends of the 12g shot shell spectrum and we wouldn't know the difference without actual shell specs.

Thirds, are you by chance using some quad rail or tri rail hand guard?

Fourth, what FCG are you using? If 3pc aftermarket, did you address the hammer issue?

 

Lastly the D mod is not a hack job no matter how bad some so called self proclaimed professionals wanna say it is. It is a DIY modification that works, period! Those so called professionals have no argument to contradict the fact that it works, only that it is overkill, which in the real world is a moot point because it is a modification that works. Read any other threads arguing the D mod in favor of or against and you'll see no fact from the naysayers, only terms like "stupid" and "dumb". So please get the thought out of your head that the D mod is a bad modification. Anyone who cares to refute my argument, please point out some fact or a thread showing factual points made, please.

 

Truth....

 

If the person performing it goes too far, which isn't hard to do working on round shit with a square file, fouling will be increased in the shoulder of the gas block because it has been compromised and the threads of the gas regulator will foul quicker as a result. When this happens, the likelihood of the gas regulator getting stuck is increased. When the gas block is removed from the barrel, the shadow (carbon) on the barrel at the ports will show exactly where material needs to be removed from the port orifice of the gas block to allow clear flow from the port. This stuff is not rocket science and there is no need to go hog wild with a flat file when all that needs to be done is to bevel slightly with a rounded file at the position of the obstructed port. The D mod is pure ignorance, that is undeniably true. Show me one noteworthy Saiga 12 specialist that does the D mod and I will show you someone who should do something else for a living.

 

For the record, Cobra deserves some respect here. He has given what likely amounts to weeks or months worth of his life to help people here. Show me another business member at this site who has spent as much time helping here for no personal gain, just one.

 

Few questions...

Does the "D" mod work at aiding in the overall reliability of a Saiga12? It can if the obstructed port/ports are at the front of the port orifice. It does nothing for ports that are obstructed at the sides or rear of the orifice.

Is the modification 'dangerous'? As in the potential for physical injury? No. However, I will say that if I were looking at a used Saiga 12 and it had that done to it, what I would be willing to pay for it would be less, significantly less if the shoulder had been compromised or if it looked to be taken the point of being remotely close to compromised.

Does the gas block or gas system in general, care how the gas port window is shaped? They don't think and therefore don't care, but I know what you are attempting to convey. In general (literally), yes. Note the flat forward edge and grooves in the puck and the fact that it is not interference fit with the gas block and there is some degree, however minimal, of transverse puck movement in the gas block. Is it a huge deal in regards to the to the puck? Not really, but leaving the forward edge of the orifice straight in line with the face and grooves of the puck, sharp, and rough can wear the puck quicker than a round hole will.

Have you seen or read of any Saiga12 that was left in worse operating condition because of a "D" shaped window? As far as operating, no. As far as ease of maintenance and adjustment of the gas system, yes.

 

 

My debate is perceived (poorly) as arguing by some, when I've only ever asked for an explanation to counter my stance and have only been given emotional responses or possibilities (links are available to back that up). For instance the shoulder needing to be left alone because it seals the gas system when the regulator is threaded in. It doesn't. Or the fluid dynamics argument of how the expanding gases act inside the gas block with relation to the shoulder and recessed ring and the increased chamber volume because the aforementioned "gas block shoulder, to gas regulator seal" was now compromised, really? It isn't sealed there, but leaving the shoulder intact at least keeps the debris from blowing straight in. How could anyone believe any of that to be true when there is no proof of non functioning guns after the fact. It isn't about functioning, it is about not doing things that promote fouling at the regulator. Wouldn't it be a reoccurring topic seen on this forum regarding non functioning or poorly performing guns after doing the work? Surely we would have read about it over and over by now, this is the S12 motherland after all. Just because something is mentioned or not, does not attest to validity or a lack of validity. If something is not mentioned on the news, does that mean it didn't happen or it is a non-issue?

 

The point is the D mod is less than ideal and can cause issues that can be avoided by doing the same operation a different way, even quicker, with less metal removed, and without promoting fouling at the regulator.

 

Have you ever read the definitions of "self proclaimed" and "professional". It isn't hard to be a professional and very little about that word implies true skill, talent, or ability to successfully operate in their field. One can be a professional and absolutely fail in their field of endeavor.

 

 +1

[OmegaX 5]

So, here's the range report, after polishing things up:

 

I brought out some Winchester white-box, some Winchester AA, some Fiocchi trap-type load, and the last handful of Remington Gun Club.  I used the stock plug. I started with the stock puck, but eventually swapped it for the CSS peformance puck. I also brought my new VEPR along for comparison. 

 

Both guns gobbled the AA up like candy. So, at least there is one relatively inexpensive trap load I can use.  Pumping 10 rounds of 12-gauge through so fast that there are still probably 6 hulls in the air at a time is a HELL of a thing!

 

Neither gun liked the Fiocchi. Lots of FTE, and quite a bit of FTF on the Saiga. They just don't want to get into the chamber cleanly. I did see an old thread about shaping the feed ramp a little.  What's the skinny on that mod?  It also hated S&B buckshot. If I can clear that up, it would be nice. 

 

The Saiga didn't start out digging the white-box. I switched pucks (to the CSS) and was still getting FTEs every fourth round or so.  However, I don't know if it started breaking in more, or what, but the last 2 entire mags of white-box went through without a hitch. The VEPR never did dig it, but I wasn't really out to test the VEPR... It's new, and I plan on hitting up the VEPR forum to ask if I need to polish the bolt and hammer up on it, too. I still need to replace the FCG on it, anyhow. 

 

I'm probably content.  I just want to know what's reasonable.  Is it just a matter of more polishing, and it'll eat everything under the sun? Do some guns never really "get there"? If I'm right around the corner from being able to feed it whatever I want, I'll keep working on it, but if it's unreasonable to expect that, I'm probably OK with where I'm at.  So, any other pointers, or should I call it "good"?

Edited September 29, 2014 by OmegaX

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

There is a lot of reading here and I have to get some rest, so pardon me asking things that may have been answered already. What year is the S12? Is it still in sporter configuration? How many ports did it have and what size were they?

Edited September 29, 2014 by evlblkwpnz

[OmegaX 5]

Yeah... sorry about the novel(s). I always feel like tersely-worded posts risk sounding kinda dick-ish, and I probably over-compensate a little. 

 

To answer your questions:

• I've had it for a couple years, but the place I got it from probably doesn't sell a ton of them. I really don't know for sure what year. Is there a guide for what serial numbers correspond to what year?
• I did the pistol-grip conversion to it.  
• It's a 4-port gun. I'm assuming they're the normal 4-port size. They're a little bigger than 1/16".
• If you didn't get the WHOLE back-story: I did do the D-mod to it.... kinda unleashed an argument in the process. 

I just realized that in my last post I said that I switched "plugs", but I meant that I switched "pucks".  I just corrected that.

Edited September 29, 2014 by OmegaX

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Yeah... sorry about the novel(s). I always feel like tersely-worded posts risk sounding kinda dick-ish, and I probably over-compensate a little. 

I understand. I just didn't have time to read it all, but wanted to try and help. The lack of being able to convey tone over the internet is often a problem with sensitive people, so I end up prefacing things to avoid misunderstanding, but some still take it wrong. Maybe they just want to, lol. It is not easy.

 

To answer your questions:

• I've had it for a couple years, but the place I got it from probably doesn't sell a ton of them. I really don't know for sure what year. Is there a guide for what serial numbers correspond to what year? The first two numbers in the serial number is the year. Judging from the port info it sounds like it is 2011 or newer.
• I did the pistol-grip conversion to it.  
• It's a 4-port gun. I'm assuming they're the normal 4-port size. They're a little bigger than 1/16". Likely around .073" or so.
• If you didn't get the WHOLE back-story: I did do the D-mod to it.... kinda unleashed an argument in the process. I enjoyed it. It is healthy to discuss things like that and it can help people avoid less than desirable modifications in the future. It was a good thing.

I just realized that in my last post I said that I switched "plugs", but I meant that I switched "pucks".  I just corrected that. Gas regulator has very little bearing on reliability unless it is something like the Autoplug, which should only be used in an already good running S12. Did you notice much improvement with the CSS puck? I use one to see how close something is to running and it gives a slight boost, in my experience.

Tromix recommends Winchester AA and doesn't recommend Universal, so it is running pretty good. A little action refinement and one more port at factory size might get it over the hump. It is very close (I say this assuming it has unmodified factory recoil springs).

[OmegaX 5]

Correct. The springs are stock, and, to confirm, it is a 2011.

 

Its hard to say whether the CSS puck was helpful.  The first couple mags of the Universal didn't go with the CSS puck either, but the last few did. I ran out of ammo before I thought of switching it back.  

 

Would you say mine's running well enough, now, to put the auto-plug back in? I realize it probably won't magically get it to feed everything, but it would be nice to not have to pay attention to what ammo likes what setting. 

 

I'm not sure I dare drill another port, and I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "action refinement".  Just more polishing? 

 

Also, any input on the post I ran into about beveling the chamber a little?

 

Thanks for your help! 

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Correct. The springs are stock, and, to confirm, it is a 2011.

 

Its hard to say whether the CSS puck was helpful.  The first couple mags of the Universal didn't go with the CSS puck either, but the last few did. I ran out of ammo before I thought of switching it back.  

 

Would you say mine's running well enough, now, to put the auto-plug back in? I realize it probably won't magically get it to feed everything, but it would be nice to not have to pay attention to what ammo likes what setting. There is only one way to find out. Generally, I just test with the weakest ammo I want to run until I get there, then I start running a variety of loads that I might have on hand or whatever someone gives me to waste. A little teflon tape (5-10 wraps) on the reg threads can reduce the fouling at the threads and minimize loss of gas through the threads. 

 

I'm not sure I dare drill another port, and I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "action refinement".  Just more polishing? Re-profiling is where the magic is. Polish helps a little, but not as much as changing angles.

 

Also, any input on the post I ran into about beveling the chamber a little? That mod is great, just don't get carried away. It is a lot easier with the barrel out, but you will probably need a hydraulic press to get it out and back in.

 

Thanks for your help! No problem. We are all on the same team

[G O B 3,516]

Remember --- it is a LOT easier to drill a new port or increase port size than it is to get the metal PUT BACK!  This is one of those things that should be done LAST, and only after all reversible options are exhausted.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Remember --- it is a LOT easier to drill a new port or increase port size than it is to get the metal PUT BACK!  This is one of those things that should be done LAST, and only after all reversible options are exhausted.

This is great info for someone who doesn't have a set recipe yet, but most of the legitimate procedures are indeed irreversible. Swapping parts is really about the only reversible action that will not require the replacement of metal. After a while, you figure out what works every time and you can just press forward with it. This is usually a balance of what the individual is doing as there are many ways to get there, like skinning a cat, so to speak. However you get there, nothing compares to that moment when you realize you have nailed it

[twinhairdryers 2]

I hate to go back to ground zero after all this, but when you say "and no matter how tight I cranked down the auto-plug, it wouldn't cycle the light loads".  you are turning your auto plug outward to open up more gas port volume correct?  by tightening, i picture going clockwise and moving the plug inward to reduce the gas for high power loads.  I'm sure you are doing it right, but just wanted to double check based on your wording on that first post before the SHTF on this!

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I hate to go back to ground zero after all this, but when you say "and no matter how tight I cranked down the auto-plug, it wouldn't cycle the light loads".  you are turning your auto plug outward to open up more gas port volume correct?  by tightening, i picture going clockwise and moving the plug inward to reduce the gas for high power loads.  I'm sure you are doing it right, but just wanted to double check based on your wording on that first post before the SHTF on this!

The AP doesn't work like that. Turning clockwise puts more spring pressure on the valve and keeps more gas in. Counter-clockwise lets more gas come out of the regulator instead of interacting with the puck.

Edited October 3, 2014 by evlblkwpnz

[twinhairdryers 2]

 

So, I made the D-mod to the gas block (which, I found out afterward is probably not good). I have a TAC-47 auto-plug, and the CSS puck in it. I took it out to tune the auto-plug with a variety of loads, and no matter how tight I cranked down the auto-plug, it wouldn't cycle the light loads. The really strange thing is that when I popped in in some 2 3/4 high-brass hunting loads, it was pitching the hulls disturbingly far (It took about 2 rounds to make that conclusion. I'm pretty sure 20+ feet isn't good).  Can it simultaneously be under and over-gassed? 

 

My current plan is to try the 6-position plug with the same loads, but does anyone have any other ideas? 

 

I'm really regretting hacking up the gas block, now. I have made zero progress. It always would cycle heavier stuff. I dialed the plug way back, and fired probably 100 other shells, and I think I see some new dings in the puck. I'm not overly concerned, but it's a bit of a bummer.

Put your factory puck back in it and try it with the factory regulator.

Secondly, you need to specify what loads you are using. High brass/low brass means absolutely Dick when referencing shot payload, speed or power. You could easily be using two different loads at the very extreme ends of the 12g shot shell spectrum and we wouldn't know the difference without actual shell specs.

Thirds, are you by chance using some quad rail or tri rail hand guard?

Fourth, what FCG are you using? If 3pc aftermarket, did you address the hammer issue?

 

Lastly the D mod is not a hack job no matter how bad some so called self proclaimed professionals wanna say it is. It is a DIY modification that works, period! Those so called professionals have no argument to contradict the fact that it works, only that it is overkill, which in the real world is a moot point because it is a modification that works. Read any other threads arguing the D mod in favor of or against and you'll see no fact from the naysayers, only terms like "stupid" and "dumb". So please get the thought out of your head that the D mod is a bad modification. Anyone who cares to refute my argument, please point out some fact or a thread showing factual points made, please.

 

Thirds, are you by chance using some quad rail or tri rail hand guard?        

Mullet man, how would a qual rail effect FTEs or gas flow exactly?  This i think may be an issue with my new S-12 cycling low brass and having good gas ports opened and polished bolt, etc. thanks

[Mullet Man 2,114]

 

 

So, I made the D-mod to the gas block (which, I found out afterward is probably not good). I have a TAC-47 auto-plug, and the CSS puck in it. I took it out to tune the auto-plug with a variety of loads, and no matter how tight I cranked down the auto-plug, it wouldn't cycle the light loads. The really strange thing is that when I popped in in some 2 3/4 high-brass hunting loads, it was pitching the hulls disturbingly far (It took about 2 rounds to make that conclusion. I'm pretty sure 20+ feet isn't good).  Can it simultaneously be under and over-gassed? 

 

My current plan is to try the 6-position plug with the same loads, but does anyone have any other ideas? 

 

I'm really regretting hacking up the gas block, now. I have made zero progress. It always would cycle heavier stuff. I dialed the plug way back, and fired probably 100 other shells, and I think I see some new dings in the puck. I'm not overly concerned, but it's a bit of a bummer.

Put your factory puck back in it and try it with the factory regulator.

Secondly, you need to specify what loads you are using. High brass/low brass means absolutely Dick when referencing shot payload, speed or power. You could easily be using two different loads at the very extreme ends of the 12g shot shell spectrum and we wouldn't know the difference without actual shell specs.

Thirds, are you by chance using some quad rail or tri rail hand guard?

Fourth, what FCG are you using? If 3pc aftermarket, did you address the hammer issue?

 

Lastly the D mod is not a hack job no matter how bad some so called self proclaimed professionals wanna say it is. It is a DIY modification that works, period! Those so called professionals have no argument to contradict the fact that it works, only that it is overkill, which in the real world is a moot point because it is a modification that works. Read any other threads arguing the D mod in favor of or against and you'll see no fact from the naysayers, only terms like "stupid" and "dumb". So please get the thought out of your head that the D mod is a bad modification. Anyone who cares to refute my argument, please point out some fact or a thread showing factual points made, please.

 

Thirds, are you by chance using some quad rail or tri rail hand guard?        

Mullet man, how would a qual rail effect FTEs or gas flow exactly?  This i think may be an issue with my new S-12 cycling low brass and having good gas ports opened and polished bolt, etc. thanks

 

It doesn't effect gas flow. What quad rails can have an effect on is friction and alignment. They can bind up the movement of the op rod by the way they clamp down on the gas tube. it causes excess friction because of horrible alignment from the clamping force on the gas tube. Some brands of quad rails are more suspect than others.