JDeko 792 Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I've been looking to get a Pistol for quite some time [in fact I almost got a Remington R1 instead of my Saiga 12] but due to the amount of money I'm sinking into my Saiga I have a hard time justifying it. Still, when something goes *BUMP* in the night upstairs when I'm in my basement I feel pretty idiotic running upstairs holding a 41in shotgun like a crazy old coot. So to that effect a Pistol would be nice. And whilst browsing Gander Mountain's website I came across this little beauty: http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Zastava-M57-Handgun&i=757022 Inexpensive, fires an uber-powerful round, and is supposedly damn near impossible to break. Being as we're on a website for Commie Shotguns I figured there is no better place to ask about Commie Handguns! -^w^- Anyone have any experience with these? Even if its less than half the price of the Pistol I was looking at before I'd still not want to blow $360 on a pile of scrap metal if they turn out to not be as tough as I've heard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 They're basically a slightly scaled-down 1911. Same action, same disassembly procedure. The Zastava variants use a different mag (that holds one more round) than all the other TT pistols, and the bore is not chrome-lined. Otherwise it's pretty much like any other TT. They're good little pistols. If you shoot surplus for practice, you just have to be even more careful about cleaning them quickly.I could be wrong, but that price seems a little high. I remember them last coming in at around the $240-250 range - and Polish TT pistols are in the country at that price right now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted October 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Well I was adding in the 50 for transfer, a brand new one from Gander Mt. is 309, whereas the ones on Gunbroker are 175-250 in "Kinda scuffed up, BUT STILL GOOD GUYS!" condition. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Well I was adding in the 50 for transfer, a brand new one from Gander Mt. is 309, whereas the ones on Gunbroker are 175-250 in "Kinda scuffed up, BUT STILL GOOD GUYS!" condition. Well, they're surplus pistols - the ones from Gander Mountain may be arsenal refurbished, but they're certainly not brand new. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Gawd bless America that's an ugly gun. If it goes boom then who cares. Who am I to judge anyhow... I think I'm gorgeous. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted October 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Oh, are they just refurbished? Well maybe I should see how I'd make out going the gunbroker route then. and yes, it is not a very pretty gun, but the damage a 7.62x25mm round does is rather beautiful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 "Old Coot"? I resemble that remark! Nothing wrong either with hauling an appropriate high powered 41 inch long 12 gage around either for things that go bump in the night. They might be ... Zombies! Then what? Aghhh! Never bring a handgun to a shotgun fight and so on and so on. The 7.62.x25 is a wounding pistol round. Plenty of Krauts have been hit and have survived multiple burp gun hits. The .30 Carbine with FMG is only slightly better. Can you get a SBS NFA tax stamp and reduce your trusty Saiga 12 down to a considered shorter length? Now that would make a dandy house clearing weapon. Be sure to wear eye/ear protection ... if you can. HB of CJ (old coot) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 A rifle (even shortened) is not my first choice inside the home. I love the ease of aim of a shotgun. I hate the idea of turning a corner with any more barrel than is absolutely necessary. Many will disagree with me. Again, WTF do I know... I'm nothing but eye candy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
U.S. Pratorean 1,234 Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) Well I was adding in the 50 for transfer, a brand new one from Gander Mt. is 309, whereas the ones on Gunbroker are 175-250 in "Kinda scuffed up, BUT STILL GOOD GUYS!" condition. Well, they're surplus pistols - the ones from Gander Mountain may be arsenal refurbished, but they're certainly not brand new.No, I think these are new production. I got mine from Aim surplus and it is new production, NIB. The MV on these exceed .357 magnum and are capable of penetrating soft body armor. The new M57s are well made and work great. A tad slimmer and not as big as a 1911 it is still GTG I got mine to go with my AR15 Tok SBR. http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag188/eocsor/IMG_0796_zps2fa05bed.jpg Edited October 19, 2014 by JAG Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Well I was adding in the 50 for transfer, a brand new one from Gander Mt. is 309, whereas the ones on Gunbroker are 175-250 in "Kinda scuffed up, BUT STILL GOOD GUYS!" condition.Well, they're surplus pistols - the ones from Gander Mountain may be arsenal refurbished, but they're certainly not brand new.No, I think these are new production. I got mine from Aim surplus and it is new production, NIB. The MV on these exceed .357 magnum and are capable of penetrating soft body armor.The new M57s are well made and work great. A tad slimmer and not as big as a 1911 it is still GTG I got mine to go with my AR15 Tok SBR. http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag188/eocsor/IMG_0796_zps2fa05bed.jpg I looked into it, and you're right. They are importing newly-manufactured M57s. The first ones that came in were surplus pistols - and those are what I've had my hands on. The surplus pistols were very nice - I never saw one in shit condition. Without the nice Yugoslavian crest on the slide - who wants the new ones? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted October 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Its good to know they are in fact brand new pistols Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VR762Shooter 838 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 As a home defense weapon probably not the best idea. The 7.62x25 is a fast round and will likely go well past the intended target, hit or not. I'd invest in something in a larger caliber or with available HP ammo. 7.62x25 has been hard to come by as of late and while I was researching them for purchase found HP or SP damn near impossible to come across in my search. Keep in mind most my research was during the panic of last year and may have been negatively impacted by the rarity of any ammo. And just so you don't think I am bashing it, here's mine. I find them to be a good looking utilitarian handgun. Then again I do have an off taste in guns: And here is a pic of my Romy with expert iPhone black and gray: 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 i have noticed the ammo shortages. but of my other choices the 1911's are ay more expensive and the Walther PK380 shoots kinda dinky rounds Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 If you're going to get a brand new M57, you may as well get the 9mm model. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I don't trust my ability to stop someone reliably with a 9mm. Maybe a 10mm, but they're very expensive. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Do a little more reading. 9mm is fine. Nothing short of a rifle or shotgun has "stopping power" in any real sense unless you sever the spinal cord or hit the right part of the brain. Hydrostatic shock ain't happening in 9, .40, 10mm, or .45.Ammo selection is the way to go. Pick a nice +p or +p+ bonded hollow point (after ensuring that your pistol is rated for it). 9mm is a better self-defense round than 7.62x25 - you can readily obtain quality hollow point ammunition in 9mm. The vast majority of what's available in 7.62x25 is FMJ - it's a small, fast bullet that can zip right through someone. Extra energy is wasted if it's not deposited in the target. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I've actually done a whole lot of reading, and I know that nothing short of something that shatters bones really has "stopping power" tis why i got my Saiga first and not the Remington R1. I'm basically getting the Tokarev to shoot intruders if i'm awake and investigating so i don't have to tromp through my house with shotgun in hand. I don't trust 9mm, to me its too small to really trust my life to. If anything I'd go for a .45acp even though I've read a lot of places about people taking several .45s to the chest and walking away from it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I've actually done a whole lot of reading, and I know that nothing short of something that shatters bones really has "stopping power" tis why i got my Saiga first and not the Remington R1. I'm basically getting the Tokarev to shoot intruders if i'm awake and investigating so i don't have to tromp through my house with shotgun in hand. I don't trust 9mm, to me its too small to really trust my life to. If anything I'd go for a .45acp even though I've read a lot of places about people taking several .45s to the chest and walking away from it. 9mm (.35 caliber) is too small but 7.62mm (.30 cal) is fine? ...Huh? .45 is slow. 230gr ball is usually around 800-850 FPS. It's just a big heavy slug. Thick clothes can slow it down even further. I prefer .40 or 9mm for self-defense. A nice bonded hollow point in 9mm is going fast enough to get good penetration, and creates a pretty effective wound channel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 You're correct, I should have said "weak" instead of "small". I the size I was referring to was more the Joules of forces transferred into the target shot at. I'm basically substituting the 7.62 for the 10mm I really wanted but am too poor to afford. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) 7.62x25 certainly has more muzzle energy than 9mm. If there were better defensive ammunition available it would probably be a better round. As it is, I'd rather have a 9mm bonded HP than any 7.62x25 I'm familiar with, in a self-defense situation.Don't get me wrong - I love x25, it's a favorite cartridge and I have several firearms in that chambering. I just think it has a little too much penetration for home defense - I'd be concerned about an exit wound and a projectile that keeps on going instead of depositing all those extra joules into the threat. Edited October 20, 2014 by Shandlanos Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) You're correct, I should have said "weak" instead of "small". I the size I was referring to was more the Joules of forces transferred into the target shot at. I'm basically substituting the 7.62 for the 10mm I really wanted but am too poor to afford.All of the energy can only be transferred if the round stops in the target. x25 is a known over-penetrator. It's going to transfer less energy to the target than a 9mm HP, and as of now there are no good options for tok HPs. Basically, x25 is going to be a shitty defense round by comparison. As advanced as today's defense ammo is, 9mm is basically the benchmark as far as a defensive handgun round, hence the FBIs recent switch. Edited October 20, 2014 by W8lifter 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I guess that would explain how popular the 9mm is Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JESS1344 508 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) JDEKO, GOOD THING YOU DIDN'T GET THAT R1, AS REMINGTON HAS RECALLED THEM ALL..... IF A TOK IS YOUR FLAVOR OF THE DAY, CLASSIC FIREARMS HAS THE POLISH VERSION, THE BEST FINISHED AND WELL MADE OF THE BREED, FROM ALL I'VE READ, IN EXCELLENT CONDITION WITH MILITARY HOLSTER AND TWO MAGS FOR $249. $20 MORE FOR HAND PICKED. THEY ALSO HAVE THE NEWLY IMPORTED RED ARMY STANDARD FMJ FOR $49X150RNDS. I GOT A COUPLE OF BOXES OF "WOLF" HOLLOW POINTS A WHILE BACK, FROM SGAMMO, AND THEY DO EXPAND. IT'S ACTUALLY HEADSTAMPED PPU, AND MFG. IN SERBIA. THE YUGO 57 USES A LONGER, NON-STANDARD MAGAZINE. THE POLISH (AND ROMANIAN) TOKS HAVE A MUCH MORE ERGONOMIC SAFETY, DOWN BY THE MAG RELEASE (CK THE PICS ON CLASSIC'S SITE), AS OPPOSED TO THE SLIDE MOUNTED ON THE YUGO. GET THE FMJ FOR PLINK/PRACTICE, AND THE HP's FOR CARRY (SG IS OUT OF HP's FOR THE MOMENT, BTW). YOU CAN GO TO AMMOSEEKDOTCOM AND INPUT 7.62X25 HOLLOW POINT, AS I DID, TO FIND HP's. THAT'S IF YOU'RE REALLY WEDDED TO THE TOK...... TO BE PRACTICAL, HOWEVER.............. I'D SEARCH THE USUAL SUSPECTS, AIM, COPES, CENTERFIRE, PISTOLANDPAWN, JGSALES, GUNBROKER, ETC., FOR A USED GEN II OR III G19. I'D LOAD THAT THING UP WITH BUFFALO BORES 95GR +P+ LOAD, CARRYING THE BARNES SOLID COPPER PROJECTILE AT AROUND 1450FPS OR SO. A SURE ATTENTION GETTER, CHECK THE SPECS ON BUFFALO's W-SITE. WITH A FULL MAG IN THE GUN, AND A COUPLE MORE ON YOUR HIP IN A FOBUS ADJUSTABLE-FOR-ANGLE, PADDLE -TYPE MAG POUCH, AND THE GUN IN A SPARKS SUMMER SPECIAL HOLSTER, YOU'RE READY TO "START-THE-PARTY" WITH ANYBODY UPSTAIRS. USED G19 MAGS ARE EVERYWHERE, FOR PRACTICALLY GIVEAWAY PRICES. STAY AWAY FROM THE KOREAN MFG. GLOCK MAGS, BAD NEWS....... ALSO, A GOOD SET OF NIGHT SIGHTS; I LIKE MEPROLIGHTS, GET CONTRASTING COLORS FOR FRONT/REAR SIGHTS, IE, YELLOW OR ORANGE REAR, GREEN FRONT. USE THE CHEAP WHITE BOX, ET AL, FOR PLINK/PRACTICE, AND THE HOT STUFF FOR "GO". HERE'S MY 7.62X25, I PINE FOR A POLISH TT33, BUT THE $$ JUST AIN'T THERE RIGHT NOW. JESS1344 PPS43-C 7.62X25 STARTED LIFE AS A RUSSIAN DESIGNED SUBMACHINE GUN, THIS SPECIMEN IS RADOM ARSENAL, POLAND MFG. AND MODIFIED TO CLOSED BOLT SEMI AUTO. THE TWO SMALLER PROJECTILES TO THE RIGHT ARE THE PPU/WOLF HOLLOW POINTS AFTER TRANSITING ONE AND ONE-HALF 2 1/2GAL. PLASTIC WATER JUGS. THE OTHERS ARE BARNES ALL COPPER HP's, 225GR. FIRED OUT OF A .454 CASULL, 20" BBL., ROSSI M92 AT APPROXIMATELY 2200FPS. Edited October 20, 2014 by JESS1344 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Remington recalled ALL the R1's? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VR762Shooter 838 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) I'd be slightly off-put by the jacket separation, seems to be even the defensive rounds in x25 aren't optimal. As has been stated, if you want a cheap defensive pistol that isn't going to overpenetrate, 9mm with quality defensive loads. Get the Yugo Tok in 9mm if you are set on a Tok or review items stated like a G19. If you are set on something you are using in defense of your home, part of that equation must include the danger to others when firing. The x25 has too high of a danger of hurting someone behind your target to make it a first choice Edited October 20, 2014 by VR6Shooter 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 what's bad about that jacket separation? Also, admittedly I'm also getting the M57 because it seems like it'd be fun to shoot. In all likelihood I'll be shooting paper way more than people with it, and based on numbers of fatalities the .22lr is the most deadly cartridge on Earth. If there are in fact HP 7.62 Tokarev rounds wouldn't that solve the over-penetration issue? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VR762Shooter 838 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Well in this case, it could be a double edged sword. Typically jacket separation is linked to ineffective results with HP ammo. The separation leads to loss of weight and less penetration. In the 7.62x25, this may cause you to have multiple projectiles overpenetrating. If you think the Tok is going to be fun to shoot, get the New from factory 9mm version. You will pay less for practice ammo, have a better selection of defensive ammo, and 9mm is much easier to come by in panic buys than x25 is. I can go to any LGS in my area right now and select through 40 different brands/varieties of 9mm. The only place I can get x25 is online and from very few sources with little variety. Edited 2x to add: Classic currently has the M70A for $10 less than they list the x25 M57. So you could buy that from them and be set with a nice 9mm that's made in the same factory, just NIB and in a more widely available caliber. Can't post link as it is a non-business member but Google is your friend and some pic whoring of the M70A Edited October 20, 2014 by VR6Shooter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JESS1344 508 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 VR6, LET ME PROVIDE SOME FURTHER DETAILS; IT AIN'T QUITE AS BAD AS IT SEEMS............ I FIRED THAT ROUND FROM THE ALMOST 10" BBL. OF THE ABOVE PICTURED PPS43-C, SO, I WAS THEREFORE DRIVING THAT BULLET 250-300FPS FASTER THAN IT'S DESIGN PARAMETERS. I WAS ONLY ABLE TO SAFELY BACK UP ABOUT 20FT FROM THE PLASTIC WATER JUGS, SO THAT SLUG WAS STILL AT FULL THROTTLE, WHEN IT HIT. THOSE JUGS MEASURE 11 1/2", FRONT-TO-BACK, AND IT WENT COMPLETELY THROUGH ONE AND INTO THE OTHER, FOR SOME DISTANCE, BEFORE DROPPING TO THE BOTTOM OF THE JUG. THE HYDROSTATIC OVERPRESSURE WAS SUFFICIENT THAT IT BLEW THE COMPLETE SPIGOT ASSEMBLY OFF OF THE FIRST JUG. SO, WITH ALL THAT CONSIDERED, IT WASN'T DOING ALL THAT BAD. WOULD I RATHER HAVE A BARNES ALL COPPER HP? HELL YEAH, BUT THERE AIN'T ONE, YET..... THAT'S WHY THE .454 BARNES WERE IN THAT PICTURE. I HAD ORIGINALLY SENT THAT PIC TO SOMEONE, AS A SUGGESTION OF WHAT THAT ROUND COULD BE LOADED WITH. JESS1344 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VR762Shooter 838 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Thanks for the explanation on that one, Jess. I'd still say with the availability of a 9mm version NIB and with a better ammo selection the M70A is a better option for someone looking into home defense from a Tok pistol. Not trying to bash on x25. As Shandlanos said, its a favorite for me as well and I have a few pistols for it. I don't carry them, wouldn't carry them, and would not offer them up as a recommendation for a HD pistol. Not with the availability of better options in the same pistol family. Hell, I'd go so far as to say if you want a dirt cheap defensive pistol that isn't going to over-penetrate, check out options in 9mm Mak. You can get those for the same price as the x25 Toks and even without HP you aren't going to have as much worry about blowing through your intended target and hitting other household members or neighbors (depending on living arrangements). If he really wants a M57 but wants it as HD, the M70A is the best he's going to find. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JESS1344 508 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Remington recalled ALL the R1's? JDEKO, MY MOST SINCERE APOLOGIES, MY DEAR, I GOAT-SCREWED THE NOMENCLATURE OF THE PISTOL. REMINGTON RECALLED ALL OF THE R51's. THE PRICE OF ABOUT 20 HOURS BEHIND A KEYBOARD; YOU GET A LITTLE BLURRY AROUND THE EDGES.... YOU CAN GOOGLE SEARCH REMINGTON R51 AND GET THE DETAILS; IT WAS A MESS. JESS1344 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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