Stolen Gun? You Go to Jail...

[gunman1 1,753]

Virginia Beach Targets Lawful Gun Owners

http://danaloeschradio.com/virginia-beach-targets-lawful-gun-owners

 

Virginia Beach City Council is proposing a new law that would hold responsible lawful gun owners if their guns are stolen by criminals:

Virginia Beach City Council wants a law that critics say, will punish the crime victims, the people who had their guns stolen. If the gun owners don’t quickly report lost or stolen firearms, they could face jail time. Now some people will say, good, of course stolen guns should be reported. But others say the Beach’s idea does nothing to stop the thieves, or the violence, but instead targets the good guys.

This proposal simply re-victimizes a victim of a crime. It's victim shaming. It also presupposes that the majority of crimes are committed using firearms stolen from people who don't report the theft. The nine states that have passed mandatory reporting of stolen firearms boast some of the highest firearm related deaths in the country: Illinois, New York, Michigan, District of Columbia, New Jersey. How does passing a law penalizing lawful gun owners reduce crime when laws already criminalizing prohibited firearm possession and misuse are in effect? 

Maybe local governments can ask the media not to aid criminals who want to steal guns, for starters. 

It's a messed up world when "moderate Syrian rebels" are treated better with regards to firearms than American citizens. 

 

Gonna be interesting to see where this piece of shit ends up, it's a fuken police state over there.

[james lambert 3,059]

http://politicalmaps.org/2012-virginia-political-maps/

 

The big cities have the control, no matter what the vast number of counties want

[Shandlanos 1,470]

This is one of the few gun control laws I can almost get behind.

Instead, if your weapon isn't sufficiently secured, is stolen and used in a crime, you should be civilly and criminally liable, to some limited extent. Just failing to report a stolen weapon shouldn't be a criminal offense.

[HighPlainsDrifter 466]

This is one of the few gun control laws I can almost get behind.

Instead, if your weapon isn't sufficiently secured, is stolen and used in a crime, you should be civilly and criminally liable, to some limited extent. Just failing to report a stolen weapon shouldn't be a criminal offense.

So does that mean having a truck gun is out of the question? What about in the home, do I have to have all my firearms in a safe? If someone breaks into my home and steals my firearms why should I be criminally responsible for what they do with it.

 

On the flipside Adam Lanza's mother allowed her psychotic son access to her firearms. If she was alive today I would liked to have seen her be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

 

 

The nine states that have passed mandatory reporting of stolen firearms boast some of the highest firearm related deaths in the country: Illinois, New York, Michigan, District of Columbia, New Jersey

Hmmm there is a link here, just can't seem to figure it out.............

[Big John! 2,062]

This is one of the few gun control laws I can almost get behind.

 

Instead, if your weapon isn't sufficiently secured, is stolen and used in a crime, you should be civilly and criminally liable, to some limited extent. Just failing to report a stolen weapon shouldn't be a criminal offense.

Watch out for the slippery slope.  I don't want any responsibility for what some jackass, scum, thief does with my firearm after he STEALS it.  Nofuckinway!

 

 

This is one of the few gun control laws I can almost get behind.

Instead, if your weapon isn't sufficiently secured, is stolen and used in a crime, you should be civilly and criminally liable, to some limited extent. Just failing to report a stolen weapon shouldn't be a criminal offense.

So does that mean having a truck gun is out of the question? What about in the home, do I have to have all my firearms in a safe? If someone breaks into my home and steals my firearms why should I be criminally responsible for what they do with it.

 

On the flipside Adam Lanza's mother allowed her psychotic son access to her firearms. If she was alive today I would liked to have seen her be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

 

Again...  The slope is very slippery here...  While I tend to agree with the parents responsibility, I just don't trust that any laws like this won't be abused.  Anybody goes nuts with yer gone is surely going to be deemed a nut simply because of their actions with your weapon.

You guys want any laws regarding someone being prosecuted for what someone else does.  Be ready for them to be used on YOU!

[wasrNwarpaint 184]

the answer is to sell all your guns buy new ones from private sale .....if they are stolen so the fuck what .....were not the thieves, were the targets by both the liberals and the crooks

[Sim_Player 1,939]

So, the gun you had locked up in a vacation home was stolen 6 months ago....now what?

 

Bad law.

 

If your car is stolen and used in a crime should you go to jail, too?

Edited October 23, 2014 by Sim_Player

[storm6490 2,768]

This is one of the few gun control laws I can almost get behind.

 

Instead, if your weapon isn't sufficiently secured, is stolen and used in a crime, you should be civilly and criminally liable, to some limited extent. Just failing to report a stolen weapon shouldn't be a criminal offense.

Millions of people keep firearms out in the open and don't lock everything up. As I type this, I see three rifles hanging from the wall. You would be silly to steal them but I could see a drugged up lunatic hitting our house while we were out.

 

Why the fuck should I put my rifles in a safe? Why the fuck do I need to lock them up? When you need it, how long does it take to unlock your rifles?

 

Stay the fuck out of my home with your city slicker horse shit.

 

No offense to you brother. Just trying to help you see my side of it.

This law is pretty easy to bypass.

 

If you are asked about your pistol or rifle that was stolen and used in a crime, since they can't catch the criminals and now want to make money off of gun owners, simply state that you sold it and can't remember who. It was a private sale years ago.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Not one inch not one more bit of power to these clowns.

[Sim_Player 1,939]

I have an "absolute" solution. Just make it a crime to break into private property...oh, well then punish the victim because they can't find the thief!

[storm6490 2,768]

Did you secure your Gasoline in a OSHA approved locking container inside your garage today?

 

Did you disable your vehicle when you turned it off today?

 

Did you lock up your kitchen knives and stow away all your rope?

 

 

Your HOME IS YOUR CASTLE.

 

BY PLACING SHIT INSIDE YOUR HOME IT IS DEEMED SECURE. ANYBODY WHO STEALS FROM YOUR HOME IS LIABLE FOR ALL PROPERTY.

[Sim_Player 1,939]

Leave a loaded firearm on a park bench and then we can talk about culpability.

[getitat 609]

Hello

 

And, obviously, they all have to be registered, so we know how to contact the rightful owner......

 

-Guido in Houston

[Lomotil 1]

Is there some sort of state registry of firearms in VA? 

There is no federal registry of firearms in this country (yet.)  The only way I can see you being charged with any crime associated with a recovered gun bearing a serial number that matches one you own is if you report it stolen in the first place, which really doesn't help you out if the thief grinds off the serial number (a separate crime itself.) 

We had a customer come in today that had his truck broken into and someone stole a Taurus pistol from him, which was recovered (along with some other personal items stolen along with it,) but they would not release the gun back to the original owner because the serial was ground off.  It would probably cost that man more money to have a new one inscribed on it to legally take ownership of it than the gun is worth altogether. 

Getting back to the idea of a national registry, here's a basic rundown on how the ATF works:  If a dealer sells or transfers a gun to an individual, the buyer has to fill out the standard ATF 4417 form.  CHL holders with an active license can leave right away with the gun.  If they don't have a CHL, a phone call or internet check is initiated with the information provided by the buyer on the 4417 form.  Basically, it's a brief FBI background check that will give the dealer one of three responses:  Proceed, Denied, or Delay.  Delay usually doesn't end up in a denial, it's almost always caused by their end being overloaded (we see this shit a lot on the weekends when gun shows are going on.) 

The only information that the FBI/ATF is provided with is your name, responses to race/ethnicity questions on the form, place of birth, state of residence, country of residence, and a very vague definition of the type of gun you're buying or having transferred.  The make, model, caliber, and serial number of the specific firearm is recorded on that form, but it stays with the dealer for a minimum of 20 years - ATF/FBI never sees it unless there is some sort of investigation or the dealer goes out of business or makes any changes to their FFL license, in which case all old paperwork is collected, stored in a warehouse for as long as it takes to fill up a truck to ship the forms to West Virginia for data entry.  The only other place where that same info is recorded is in a ledger that the FFL dealer must keep current with a source and destination for each firearm that passes through their shop.  Again, this book will be collected by the ATF and eventually microfiched (the thing they do in WV) if any change to the business that causes a new FFL dealer number to be issued, but otherwise, and the main point here, is that all information that is specific to a customer's firearm is kept at the point-of-sale/transfer.  The only thing that goes into a check is the number of firearms, and the category the firearm falls into (pistol, rifle, shotgun, other.) 

Also, very important to know (something I wasn't aware of until I was on the other side of the counter,) but Federal law requires a retailer to fill out additional paperwork AND notify the sheriff deputy when the same person purchases two or more guns within five business days from the same retailer.  Look at page 3 of the 4417 form to see the actual wording for this stipulation.  Also, a notice went out within the last month or few that added "unusual buying habits" to the same list of things that should be reported, citing the recent ISIS activity.

Just thought I'd pass this on, as there seems to be a bit of conflicting beliefs as to the existence of a national gun registry (again, which there is not,) and some extra info regarding the process involved with the background checks.

[gunman1 1,753]

^^^^^^^Good job, thanks for taking the time.

[Lomotil 1]

Thanks.  Glad to do it - I never knew most of this until I was on the other side of the counter...

[DogMan 2,343]

Report it stolen so they can do what? Go find it? Yeah, right. This one is just going to backfire and many stolen guns just won't be reported once people realize they may have gone past the time limit, and I think some may not even report it immediately believing that there is now a vendetta to punish gun theft victims. It's better to let the gun go and stay anonymous than set yourself up to be prosecuted.

[gunman1 1,753]

Report it stolen so they can do what? Go find it? Yeah, right. This one is just going to backfire and many stolen guns just won't be reported once people realize they may have gone past the time limit, and I think some may not even report it immediately believing that there is now a vendetta to punish gun theft victims. It's better to let the gun go and stay anonymous than set yourself up to be prosecuted.

 

The problem is that BATF has the ability to trace guns back to their original purchaser, so if you don't report it (and something happens) then you stand the chance of going to jail under this law.

 

This is all coming from bloomdick, he has his entire arm rammed up the asses of the mayors in the cities around here 

[Big John! 2,062]

 

Report it stolen so they can do what? Go find it? Yeah, right. This one is just going to backfire and many stolen guns just won't be reported once people realize they may have gone past the time limit, and I think some may not even report it immediately believing that there is now a vendetta to punish gun theft victims. It's better to let the gun go and stay anonymous than set yourself up to be prosecuted.

 

The problem is that BATF has the ability to trace guns back to their original purchaser, so if you don't report it (and something happens) then you stand the chance of going to jail under this law.

 

This is all coming from bloomdick, he has his entire arm rammed up the asses of the mayors in the cities around here 

 

You mean the gun I lost in the lake?  Someone actually found it and used it in a crime?  Wow, that's some crazy shit!

[gunman1 1,753]

 

 

Report it stolen so they can do what? Go find it? Yeah, right. This one is just going to backfire and many stolen guns just won't be reported once people realize they may have gone past the time limit, and I think some may not even report it immediately believing that there is now a vendetta to punish gun theft victims. It's better to let the gun go and stay anonymous than set yourself up to be prosecuted.

 

The problem is that BATF has the ability to trace guns back to their original purchaser, so if you don't report it (and something happens) then you stand the chance of going to jail under this law.

 

This is all coming from bloomdick, he has his entire arm rammed up the asses of the mayors in the cities around here 

 

You mean the gun I lost in the lake?  Someone actually found it and used it in a crime?  Wow, that's some crazy shit!

 

 

Yep...that is exactly the one they're talking about. Oh...you didn't report it lost....click click...see ya in 5-10 years, hope you enjoy yer time with Bubba.

[DogMan 2,343]

 

Report it stolen so they can do what? Go find it? Yeah, right. This one is just going to backfire and many stolen guns just won't be reported once people realize they may have gone past the time limit, and I think some may not even report it immediately believing that there is now a vendetta to punish gun theft victims. It's better to let the gun go and stay anonymous than set yourself up to be prosecuted.

 

The problem is that BATF has the ability to trace guns back to their original purchaser, so if you don't report it (and something happens) then you stand the chance of going to jail under this law.

 

This is all coming from bloomdick, he has his entire arm rammed up the asses of the mayors in the cities around here 

 

That's correct, and what I meant to say is that many who don't understand all that will believe it's better to let the gun go and stay anonymous, therefore the unintended consequences. Personally I would report mine stolen right away.

[gunman1 1,753]

 

 

Report it stolen so they can do what? Go find it? Yeah, right. This one is just going to backfire and many stolen guns just won't be reported once people realize they may have gone past the time limit, and I think some may not even report it immediately believing that there is now a vendetta to punish gun theft victims. It's better to let the gun go and stay anonymous than set yourself up to be prosecuted.

 

The problem is that BATF has the ability to trace guns back to their original purchaser, so if you don't report it (and something happens) then you stand the chance of going to jail under this law.

 

This is all coming from bloomdick, he has his entire arm rammed up the asses of the mayors in the cities around here 

 

That's correct, and what I meant to say is that many who don't understand all that will believe it's better to let the gun go and stay anonymous, therefore the unintended consequences. Personally I would report mine stolen right away.

 

 

It's just another way to make a criminal out of otherwise good people, and thus unable to EVER own firearms legally again. It's like when you get into a heated argument with a family member and somehow the fuken cops show up....in most jurisdictions somebody is going to jail, and they don't give a shit who, by the time court is over that person is no longer allowed to own firearms, and they don't even know it until they try buy one. We are so fucking stupid, we just let these evil pricks take away our rights.........how fuken stupid.

[Lomotil 1]

 

[The problem is that BATF has the ability to trace guns back to their original purchaser]

 

The only way they have that ability is if the original FFL holder that sold the gun has let their license expire, changed the name of their business, added or removed a person from the FFL license itself, or closed up shop.  These are the only times the ATF collect the only copy of the 4473 form that the purchaser filled out (which lists the make, model, caliber, and serial number,) and the shop's log book that records every gun that has been transferred through the shop (where it came from, what it is, and where it went.)  The only information they're given when performing a background check to approve a sale or transfer is if the firearm is a hand gun, long gun (rifle or shotgun,) or "other firearm" (frame, reciever, etc.)  That's it.  They don't ask what the make, model, or serial number is when doing the check over the phone.

 

The ATF can go in and do an audit of a shop at any time they please, but that is usually to ensure that the FFL holder is strictly complying with the law.  The real possibility of them being able to trace a gun back to it's original purchaser is practically nil. 

 

Now, at the state level, there are some states that have additional paperwork and policies that would make that more feasible.  I'm sure in New Jersey or Kalifornia they probably have a state-run database on every gun legally purchased or transferred - but that would be a separate entity from the BATF.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Lomotil

[Lomotil 1]

https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf 

If you look at the form, only information from sections A and B are asked by the operator(s) - It isn't until section D that the specifics of the firearm is documented, and that isn't filled out until after they give the OK to proceed with the sale or transfer and hang up.