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To buy or not to buy a Saiga 5.56?


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Last week, I spotted a Saiga 5.56 in a local gun store. I've had a Saiga-12 for 6 months or so now and absolutely LOVE IT, so this Saiga quickly caught my eye. It has the pistol grip, so I assume that it's been correctly converted (knock on wood?)

 

I forget the price, but it was somewhere in the six-hundred to seven-hundred dollar range. I quickly put it back down after seeing the price tag, because my gun budget can't support that right now, but I've been thinking seriously about it since (damn the gun budget, eh?)

 

I know these can't be imported right now, and they are likely in shortly supply, and it looked like a great buy to me. I like AK's better than AR's for some reason, so this would be the natural choice for me to be able to shoot the common .223 ammo. I'm trying hard to come up with a reason NOT to go back this afternoon and pick it up. ;)

 

So, should I buy or not? :) Duh, I know the answer you guys will give, which is the same answer I would give when somebody asks this "stupid" question, but help me make the decision anyway, all right? Help me feel better about the purchase or give me a valid reason why I shouldn't go pick it up!

 

(And yes, it was marked as 5.56, not as .223. I just figured they all were like that. Is that true? It would shoot .223 just fine, would it not? Currently .223 is not in my extensive list of calibers for which I own guns, but that might change soon.)

Edited by MR_22
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I have one with a 20" barrel that was converted by Century. It runs well with Circle 10 mags and Tapco mags. However I have a Vepr .223 also and it does not like the Tapco mags. If you are willing to do a little trial and error with a few different types of mags I think you would like the gun. YMMV.. I am and always will be a 7.62x39 man myself, but it's nice to have a couple that shoot a NATO caliber. They are only as reliable as the magazines you put in them.

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I would not buy it. Mine has been a thorn in my side. It shoots reliably and accurately enough, but you never know what you are going to get in terms of the types of magazine that will fit.

Thanks for your advice. Is that generally your opinion on Saigas, or just the .223 version?

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I would not buy it. Mine has been a thorn in my side. It shoots reliably and accurately enough, but you never know what you are going to get in terms of the types of magazine that will fit.

Thanks for your advice. Is that generally your opinion on Saigas, or just the .223 version?

 

 

Saiga 223s. There is no standard magazine for 223 AKs and that, plus the huge variances of manufacturing in the Saigas, has lead to trouble for some. (Others have had no problems at all).

 

However, I've gotten tired of the project nature of Saigas. Nowadays, I'd rather buy a complete or mostly-complete rifle.

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SGM Tactical mags fit perfect. They are not mil spec, but they are fairly durable and are made specifically for the Saiga.

 

The Yugo PAP M85 mags and the steel Galil mags do not work. They sit too low in the mag well and cause misfeeds.

 

I ordered a circle 10 and will be seeing how it fits soon. I ordered the mil spec one.

 

I have not heard of large variances in the Saiga rifle production. There is large variance between AK's from different countries for the .223, but the Saiga is made to some of the highest standards, and there is not a large variance in the Saigas chambered in .223.

Edited by tbryanh
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Steel Galil mags do in fact work in some guns. I use them in my s223 with no issues. The Tapco mags have always fed with no issues.

I love my S223, it has a very different (softer) recoil impulse than the 7.62. If you like it and have the money buy it.

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So, I went back to my gun store to check on the Saiga .223 and they in fact had three of them for $599. I was tempted to get one, but didn't. I had sworn they said 5.56 on them when I went previously, but they said .223 Remington. Hmm.

 

They'd had a light-weight Ruger Mini-14 previously that they had since sold and I kind of wish I had gotten that one. Still thinking on the Saiga .223. I did like the looks of it--except for the square on the right side of the receiver that had been crossed out. Not sure what lettering or whatever they had removed, but the crisscrossed square looked kind of ugly. Why did they do that?

 

I like SGM mags for my Saiga-12, so I still may get the Saiga .223 and try SGM. I wasn't in love with it when I went back, tho, so I didn't take one home. We'll see. Thanks for the comments on it tho!

Edited by MR_22
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5.56 is fine to shoot through the Saiga .223, I have more than 1000 rds of down the pipe on mine with very little throat erosion. I wouldn't do that with an AR chambered .223 though.

 

The patch mark you refer to on the safety side of the receiver is the old importer mark that has been crossed out by the new importer now found on the reverse side. It is common. It can be filled in when converting if you like.

 

I wish your LGS was local to me, I would pick up another for that price, even though mine cost me $349 when I bought mine back in '10. Good luck on whatever you decide.

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I have asked myself the same question. The problem that I have is what would I use .223 for?

 

I have a 5.45, and with Red Army Standard about $12 for a box of 30 and widely available, if I need a light-weight round I can go for that.

 

For hunting I have several Saiga 308s, and they get the job done.

 

So rather than buying a 223 Saiga, I bought my 4th in 308 (2 in 16.5" barrel, 2 in 22" barrel).

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I have not heard of large variances in the Saiga rifle production.

 

Well, you are relatively new to the forum. Your assertion that steel Galils don't work is one illustration of the limited nature of your experience in this area. (I understand that they don't work for your gun). Spend some time in the 223 sub-forum going years back, and you'll encounter the variances and issues I spoke of.

 

There is large variance between AK's from different countries for the .223, but the Saiga is made to some of the highest standards

 

Saigas tend to be of good quality, but there are plenty of vodka specials among them. It is also clear that Izhmash was not careful to manufacture the 223 model closely to one spec.

Edited by Jim Digriz
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SGM Tactical mags fit perfect. They are not mil spec, but they are fairly durable and are made specifically for the Saiga.

 

The Yugo PAP M85 mags and the steel Galil mags do not work. They sit too low in the mag well and cause misfeeds.

 

I ordered a circle 10 and will be seeing how it fits soon. I ordered the mil spec one.

 

I have not heard of large variances in the Saiga rifle production. There is large variance between AK's from different countries for the .223, but the Saiga is made to some of the highest standards, and there is not a large variance in the Saigas chambered in .223.

 

If you look back through older posts in the .223 forum, you will find that pretty much all who swear by the steel Galil mags are using them in the earlier "slabside" .223 models without mag well dimples.

 

There are very minor differences between the Saiga .223 with and without magwell dimples which seem to affect reliable function of the steel Galil mags - most of the "slabside" .223s have a square trunnion that was already set up for a bullet guide, most of the dimpled .223s have a round trunnion. There are probably some very slight dimensional differences in the two trunnions, which cause the Galil mags to sit at a correct height in the slabside models, but too low in the dimpled models. Izhmash may have also used a slightly thinner shim plate on the mag latch on these earlier models, but I cannot guarantee it.

 

They are VERY close to being a directly compatible mag in the dimpled models, but whatever differences are present, prevent them from working 100% without getting them to sit slightly higher in the receiver. I have four of the steel Galils and have tried everything short of re-welding the tabs - from replacing the followers and springs with new manufacture Wolff springs and Magpul followers, to bending the tabs back to give a higher seating height - could never get it high enough to feed reliably.

 

I wish I had both models to take some dimensional measurements, but I don't, so I'm just basing this info on everything that I've seen while pouring over posts in this forum for a couple of years - unfortunately now it is pretty much now a dying platform with the importation sanctions.

 

Fortunately the cheap Tapco clones "just work" in all of the models, so if somebody doesn't care about using an all-plastic mag, they really are the cheapest mag for a .223 Saiga - so long as you have a bullet guide. It's too bad that Tapco didn't manufacture them to be compatible with AK-74 spec .223 AKs (SLR-106), but then you would have people complaining about wobble using them in Saigas - just can't win I guess.

 

With the Circle-10 you will have to modify the forward feed lips, or else they will contact the bottom of the locking lugs. Same modification is required to the Beryl mags. Both C10 and Beryl mags are designed for AK-74 spec trunnion/mag well, but they will work fine in the Saiga once you do this mod. Don't fit them too tightly to the trunnion, or you can cause the feed lips to bend outwards when inserting, causing feed failures - the mag should rotate and lock in smoothly with little force.

 

You could also have the locking lug bottoms machined to AK-74 spec.. Should be an easy job with a proper drill press setup and small end mill bit. Most gunsmiths would probably just look at you funny if you asked them to do this though.

 

See image.. Unmodified mag on the left, modified mag on the right (I should have removed the dummy round)

 

FmWEq.jpg

Edited by mancat
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Good discussion, all, thanks. I haven't gone back to buy one of the Saiga .223's yet. I'm thinking maybe if I want a Saiga like that, I should just get the 7.62x39 version instead, so I can sure ammo with my Yugo AK (of which I already have thousands of rounds) . As it is now, I don't have anything else that shoots .223. If the Saiga .223 was cheaper, I would probably just go ahead and get it, but at $599, it's NOT a no-brainer decision, unfortunately.

 

Too bad I don't have unlimited funds. ;)

 

In the meantime, I'm sinking some of my gun budget into parts to build a PPS-43 rifle, including creating my own receiver from an 80%. So far, I have the parts kit with torch-cut receiver, and have ordered a 7.62x25 rifle barrel, semi-auto bolt and trigger/sear assembly.

Edited by MR_22
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I bought two saiga .223 in the last week. I swore off .223 caliber all together. But somewhere around 9 or 10 my sons no longer found the .223/5.56 recoil objectionable. So in theft week or so I'll prob pick up another one. I plan to set them up with at mag adapters, as the mags are the Achilles heel of the S.223

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  • 1 month later...

I ended up with two .223 Saigas. One has an AR mag adapter (which works great) and the other is stock. The stock one Is NIB. I'm Hoping to get the stock one converted in 2015. I'm not an AR guy so my Saigas are my .223 rifles. Being able to use AR mags makes things a whole lot easier. This summer I picked up one of the Yugo M85 pistols and it also uses AR mags.

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Just so you know, the .223 Saiga is actually a 5.56x45. It's the civilian version of the AK101. Izhmash marked them .223 because of goofy Russian gun laws around military rounds.

 

This was confirmed by RAAC in the early days :) also it's in the stickies.

 

Also the Tapco and SGMs are generally good enough for me.

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  • 1 month later...

I liked my Saiga 223, it was accurate and reliable.  But, finding mags for it was somewhat difficult and expensive when you did find them.  I had planned to make modifications like replacing the stock with a tactical one, adding a bullet guide, having a flash hider added, etc, but all that was going to be very costly so I said, the heck with it.  I traded it even up for a Glock 21 (45 ACP), w/3 13 round mags and one 26 round mag.  

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