forsaken352 235 Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) A sound seemingly emanating from the southeast U.S.? That would be me screaming my head off when I pull my carrier out this morning and find this... So, aside from purchasing a new R&R for an arm and a leg, what're my options? ETA: No buffer and 3 port holes of unknown size. Edited October 27, 2014 by forsaken352 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TopOfClimb 1 Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Happened to me this spring. Cobra Customs fixed it. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/user/1293-cobras-custom-llc/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Have it welded. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Send it to Shannon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Well, that S12 part breakage sucks! I am curious and not yellow; what kind of shell mileage/count did you have on the shotgun? Also what kind of loads? Reason I ask is that I am wondering right now if what happened to you might also happen to me ... and many others? Just me. HB of CJ (old coot) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
forsaken352 235 Posted October 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Well, that S12 part breakage sucks! I am curious and not yellow; what kind of shell mileage/count did you have on the shotgun? Also what kind of loads? Reason I ask is that I am wondering right now if what happened to you might also happen to me ... and many others? Just me. HB of CJ (old coot) I'm leaning towards less than 1,000, but definitely no more than 1,500. Main diet is #7 1/2 or #8 Federal bulk pack with occasional buckshot (both on proper settings). I believe it just happened yesterday as I ran through some Federal last Wednesday, I believe, and I did not notice anything, and I believe yesterday's 100 would've caused a crack like that to become far worst if it were there already. I looked on Cobra Custom's facebook page, and it briefly explained the reason this happens. Basically, the piston isn't threaded completely in, then when the Russians press the dimples in to keep the piston, it causes all the force to rely on the threads alone. The metal in this area is thin, and causes it to crack on some. Also, from what I understand, on regular Ak's, there is a steel pin which keeps the piston rather than just dimples. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Well, that S12 part breakage sucks! I am curious and not yellow; what kind of shell mileage/count did you have on the shotgun? Also what kind of loads? Reason I ask is that I am wondering right now if what happened to you might also happen to me ... and many others? Just me. HB of CJ (old coot) I broke the carrier in my SBS while trying to see if I could break the SBS, in general. It took many rounds of Remington Express 3" 00 Buck while on the wide open gas setting and finally broke clean on the thin portion behind the op rod. After that, I bent the receiver trying to break the repair under many sessions of the same treatment. At that point, the testing was becoming expensive, painful, and the repair would clearly take more abuse than the receiver, so I stopped trying to break the carrier and decided to be satisfied with the repair. I was amazed that the firing pin never broke as that was what I thought would be the first thing to go. The S12 in the first 100 round video and the 200 round video finally started showing some cracks. It had a few sessions where a variety of ammo was fired on the wide open session, not to mention thousands of rounds of bulk ammo. The lack of proper regulator adjustment on that one was accidental. It was cracked in two spots around where the op rod is, so I would assume it had been cracked for a while before I noticed it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pt92 4 Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 I feel for you man. I took me until my 40's (still there by a few years and I am holding on as 50 scares the crap out of me...) that such matters no longer freaked me...Mind you that's a long time in that I have been shooting since a kid. Today even though I still have a modest collection of hand/long guns (everything's relative of course) I look at them more as tools and the like instead of 'pristine works of art' to be pampered. Not saying this applies to you it's just that your "scream" reminded of my first 'shit-my-pants' event which was a cracked locking-block on a mighty pretty Beretta 92. Happy Holidays (yup--I start early to divert my thoughts from the chaotic world in which we live), pt92 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D.C.MORRISON 494 Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 After repairing the carrier. I recommend installing a Tom Cole operating rod. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
forsaken352 235 Posted November 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 I feel for you man. I took me until my 40's (still there by a few years and I am holding on as 50 scares the crap out of me...) that such matters no longer freaked me...Mind you that's a long time in that I have been shooting since a kid. Today even though I still have a modest collection of hand/long guns (everything's relative of course) I look at them more as tools and the like instead of 'pristine works of art' to be pampered. Not saying this applies to you it's just that your "scream" reminded of my first 'shit-my-pants' event which was a cracked locking-block on a mighty pretty Beretta 92. Happy Holidays (yup--I start early to divert my thoughts from the chaotic world in which we live), pt92 I hear what you're saying. I look at them as tools as well, and if they get scratched or dinged, then it's a shame, but it happens. To find this just really kind of bummed me out because I knew it's pretty much impossible to replace with an OEM part. After repairing the carrier. I recommend installing a Tom Cole operating rod. Appreciate the tip. Honestly, I'll probably just end up with an R&R carrier when all is said and done. If I go to welding it, then it's always going to be in my mind that it's a possible weak point from then on. That is enough reason in my mind to just replace the whole carrier with something I know I should be able to depend on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 After repairing the carrier. I recommend installing a Tom Cole operating rod. Appreciate the tip. Honestly, I'll probably just end up with an R&R carrier when all is said and done. If I go to welding it, then it's always going to be in my mind that it's a possible weak point from then on. That is enough reason in my mind to just replace the whole carrier with something I know I should be able to depend on. Well suit yourself but I already have one in the shop I'm making better than new. I've never heard anything about any of the others we've repaired having a single issue so if you decide to send it in I think you will be good to go for as long as you can still fire the weapon. I drill & blind pin it first (horizontally) and both ends of the steel pin are pressed into beveled holes then ground / sanded smooth so you can't really tell it's there. Then the crack is tig welded along with the gas piston / op rod threaded joint. It's overkill but I haven't had a failure yet. If you're interested PM me and we can discuss the pricing and details. Aside from ending up with something much better than rolled out of Izhmash you will also have the advantage of keeping your original matching serial numbered part... for less than the cost of a new carrier. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 I never understood why people want to put a thicker, stiffer, and heavier op rod in a weapon that already had a cracked carrier. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D.C.MORRISON 494 Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 I replaced mine before it even had a chance to crack. I'm not an expert. Just seemed to be common sense that it is better for the back of the O.R. to be seated against the carrier. As you know, the steel where the threads are is tapered and quite thin at the edge. I may just be neurotic. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 I'll never understand why people worry about a welded part. If you did it properly with the right rod it should be stronger than the parent metal. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 I never understood why people want to put a thicker, stiffer, and heavier op rod in a weapon that already had a cracked carrier. Although fairly rare, the heads pop off of the op rods too. There were a whole bunch of them for a while a few years ago. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/58168-broken-gas-piston-rod/&do=findComment&comment=550614 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ruffian72 548 Posted November 16, 2014 Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 Well, could see the seating of rod could cause an issue 3 or 4 years ago. Was a bit of wobble, so boxed carrier up and had Cobra reseat a Cole rod. Solid, flush, no issue since. As Nailbomb stated, had pieces rebreak on equipment, that's used in rigorous conditions. Never at a weld point. Good weld is stronger than original cast, due to metal imperfections in initial casting pour at forge. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SGL 530 Posted November 16, 2014 Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 Loose pistons are expected and even arguably preferable on an AKM. Is this not the case with the S12? Is a wobbly piston a liability on an shotgun?Almost all of the S12 bolt carriers I've had a chance to handle have little to no wobble in the piston. On the AK, a little wobble is intentionally put in to allow it to function with a slightly canted GB/RSB. If an S12 has a loose piston, does that mean they built it that way on purpose to accommodate a variance in the particular gun it's going into? In other words, do the factory workers check to see if a piston is rubbing, and then loosen it if it is, or is the amount of slop determined more by how much Ivan happens to care that day. I don't believe we have any former Izhmash Factory workers here on the forum, so obviously I'm just looking for opinions. I can see how having play in a piston would make it more likely to crack the carrier, but the fact that this is standard on AKs made it something that never concerned me. I'm hoping the experts here might chime in and give their experience regarding this. Of the broken carriers you've seen, did they all start out with loose pistons? Have you ever seen a broken carrier on a gun that came with a tight piston? Have you ever seen a case where tightening it on a well running gun caused issues with cycling due to the piston binding? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D.C.MORRISON 494 Posted November 16, 2014 Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 All valid questions. wish I knew the answers. Just checked three of my rifles. M76 very slight play, maadi 7.62x39 very slight play, Romanian 5.45x39 rock solid. My S-12 original O.R. was very loose/sloppy. By my estimation, The shotgun obviously requires a good deal more gas to cycle. So the forces exerted on the O.R. are probably greater. Just pulled out the S-12. The Tom Cole O.R. moves about one degree. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SGL 530 Posted November 16, 2014 Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 I just created a new thread in hopes of getting this topic some more exposure. The title of this one isn't all that descriptive, though it was funny. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/95797-saiga-12-loose-piston-vs-tight-piston-more-likely-to-break-carrier/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted November 16, 2014 Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 I never understood why people want to put a thicker, stiffer, and heavier op rod in a weapon that already had a cracked carrier. Although fairly rare, the heads pop off of the op rods too. There were a whole bunch of them for a while a few years ago. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/58168-broken-gas-piston-rod/&do=findComment&comment=550614 I remember. Very rare. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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