Old SF MJT 7 Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 I am in the process of converting my Saiga .223 into a more appealing configuration - a configuration that Mr. Kalashnikov would likely be more approving of. For this project I am considering using one of the laminated 'Dragonov' stocks, that seem to be eveywhere, as my base. I don't want to change the forend - I find the Saiga configuration very pleasing - and in that I am an invederate do-it-yoursself-er as well as being cheap (I perfer the term ECONOMICAL, my wife says CHEAP! ), this seems like a great deal! I inend to strip the existing finish, remove the butt plate hardware (or whatever that is on the one end!), significantly increase the LOP, then apply a black finish of some sort (haven't made up my mind on just what). Basically, my plan is to fundamentally use the laminated stock as my 'blank' to create a new stock. My question is: Am I getting into illegal areas here? I'm not certain about converting the thing to use 30 rd AK mags, so that might give me some wiggle-room. I figure the folks here on this site would be the most knowledgeble out there. What do you think? Thanks in advance. Old SF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 If you change the configuration of the rifle from its' approved form for import you are into 922r compliance. That means not more than 10 foreign parts from the BATFE list for the Saiga. All the rest must be US. Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 To fit the Dag style AK stock on there to begin with you are going to have to move the FCG forward ANYWAYS... so might as well use USA made parts when ya do, while you are in there... so you can do it the way you want and stay legal... LETS SEE.... what else you will need to swap out for US besides the hammer/disconnector/trigger... thats 3... adding a romanian drag stock back on doesnt save you anything there... what else can you change? USA mag bodies, or followers or floorplates, is one... the gas piston is another... and the handguard I believe will count towards it too... although you like the saiga look... maybe you can get one USA made from BRG3 here on the forum... he does excellent work!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 To fit the Dag style AK stock on there to begin with you are going to have to move the FCG forward ANYWAYS... so might as well use USA made parts when ya do, while you are in there... so you can do it the way you want and stay legal...LETS SEE.... what else you will need to swap out for US besides the hammer/disconnector/trigger... thats 3... adding a romanian drag stock back on doesnt save you anything there... what else can you change? USA mag bodies, or followers or floorplates, is one... the gas piston is another... and the handguard I believe will count towards it too... although you like the saiga look... maybe you can get one USA made from BRG3 here on the forum... he does excellent work!!! Good idea Indy. BRG3 would do a great job with the wood and compliance would be a lot easier to achieve. Whatever he does, there is no "cheap" way to alter the appearance without 922r legal issues. At the very least he is looking at changing out four parts and if he went conventional stock and grip that would have to be US too. I guess he could use the Romy stock, have BRG3 make the handguard, and change out the FCG for a 3 piece G2. That way he wouldn't have to screw around with the piston which can be done but is a bit of a job. He wouldn't have to worry about non-compliant magazines either....which could be a PIA. Ultimately he will have to decide if he is ready to spend some money, leave it stock, or run afoul of federal law and risk the consequences if detected. I don't consider the third option as viable. I hope this helps both old SF MJT and others who are new to Saigas or the conversion process. I am concerned there are some folks who are buying doctored hi-cap .223 mags from sellers on the forum for use in their stock .223 Saigas. I don't think some of these guys realize they have a 922r compliance issue too. It may never be an issue but if it becomes one I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end. Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
danny boy 0 Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 My question is this...... If the PSL is importable with a version of the stock he has mentoined, why would the Saiga be on the wrong side of 922r as long as its still a 10 rd capacity? essentially it would be the same rifle configuration. If he does all the work to the stock that he plans, it ceases to be imported and becomes a US made part. Add the US FCG and the Robarm mag parts to the '74 mag so it feeds 5.56 and its compliant anyway, right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 If the PSL is importable with a version of the stock he has mentoined, why would the Saiga be on the wrong side of 922r as long as its still a 10 rd capacity? essentially it would be the same rifle configuration.If he does all the work to the stock that he plans, it ceases to be imported and becomes a US made part. Add the US FCG and the Robarm mag parts to the '74 mag so it feeds 5.56 and its compliant anyway, right? Ya know... *THAT* is a very good question... and all I can think of is that the BATFE will say some bullshit like "it would no longer be in the "Imported sporting configuration" or some such drivel. I for one am not going to bother asking them... but if you want to.. please let us all know... ( This is not meant to sound sarcastic... more along the lines of "your idea... you get to ask! " LOL) I am sure the BATFE will have some problem with it... otherwise, it would be TOO EASY! Thats the bottom line... they dont want ANYTHING to be too easy for us "evil black gun owners"!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 My question is this...... If the PSL is importable with a version of the stock he has mentoined, why would the Saiga be on the wrong side of 922r as long as its still a 10 rd capacity? essentially it would be the same rifle configuration. If he does all the work to the stock that he plans, it ceases to be imported and becomes a US made part. Add the US FCG and the Robarm mag parts to the '74 mag so it feeds 5.56 and its compliant anyway, right? Sounds logical but I don't have a clear answer. If you are replacing one foreign part for another but achieve not more than ten in total by changing out four off the BATFE listing it would seem you have achieved legal compliance with 922r but I am not a technical expert nor do I know how BATFE would interpret it. I suspect since he made a good faith effort to comply little would come of it if it ever came to light. However, I do think BATFE would make a much bigger deal out of just swapping out a buttstock and not adding enough other US parts to achieve compliance. And if he adds a muzzle piece it would be best to use US, otherwise he would have to find yet another part off the list to swap out a US part for to remain at no more than ten foreign parts. Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Old SF MJT 7 Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Thanks for all the good discussion and ideas. For the moment, I am going to put my little project on hold. Maybe do a bit more research. I've got plenty on my plate right now, anyway! As always, if you need AK info, this is the place to look! THANKS!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 IMHO.... I cant see how the number of imported parts matters for 922R as LONG AS YOU HAVE THE CORRECT NUMBER OF USA PARTS.... I have a WASR 10... romanian... soncerted to USA acceptance by century... Then I tossed a chinese thumbhole and lower handguard on it.. go figure! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 IMHO.... I cant see how the number of imported parts matters for 922R as LONG AS YOU HAVE THE CORRECT NUMBER OF USA PARTS.... I have a WASR 10... romanian... soncerted to USA acceptance by century... Then I tossed a chinese thumbhole and lower handguard on it.. go figure! It only matters if you exceed ten total foreign parts from BATFE's list for the Saiga. You can add US parts all day but they have to be off the BATFE list to assist in reducing the number of foreign parts so as not to exceed not more than ten (from the BATFE list). If you focus on US parts rather than on foreign parts you can slip up on proper count. What parts did Century change out on the WASR-10 to achieve 922r compliance? They used a US century grip, a US century 3 piece FCG and ????? (century gas piston maybe?????) as the fourth part since the grip was an add after importation? Are you sure the buttstock was not put on as a US add on part with the grip once imported? What is the WASR story Indy? Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Actually... I mentioned that because I think its noncompliant now.. ROFL!!! It has 3 parts FCG, probably the Gas piston, and I KNOW the muzzlebreak is USA made too... thats 5... US ( it originally CAME WITH a usa made slant brake... i put a different USA made brake on it..) the magazines I have no clue about as there is no markings on them at all... and of course the chinese buttstock and lower forearm. the upper is the same one it came with... I dunno if its USA made, or whether it even matters, I am not going to go look for the list... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
avatar 4 Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Actually... I mentioned that because I think its noncompliant now.. ROFL!!! It has 3 parts FCG, probably the Gas piston, and I KNOW the muzzlebreak is USA made too... thats 5... US ( it originally CAME WITH a usa made slant brake... i put a different USA made brake on it..) the magazines I have no clue about as there is no markings on them at all... and of course the chinese buttstock and lower forearm. the upper is the same one it came with... I dunno if its USA made, or whether it even matters, I am not going to go look for the list... You are good to go as far as compliance -- The Butthole type stock takes the place of butt and PG in one fell swoop. So instead of needing the usual six parts with a muzzle device (assuming a stamped rec.) you only need 5. As far as needing compliance parts on the saiga set up similar to a low cap WASR 10, personally I'd screw it. WASR 10's originally were totally foreign with the narrow mag well and 10 or 5rnd mags. Century added some US part content to later models but it wasn't needed. A Saiga set up like a WASR 10 w/o the ability to take hi cap mags would logically be the same. The NDM 86's and PSL's are all sporting, the '86's even had FH's and Bayo lugs. Who can figure the whims of BATF? As long as your not public enemy #1 or even 10 for that matter, nobody would care or even give your Saiga a second glance. Other than maybe some kind of ease of conversion to hi capacity feeding device, there is nothing non sporting about that configuration given the totality of the mystical and super-secret classification system BATF uses for deciding SPORTINESS. DAmn... Black Helos...Gotta Go............ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 My thoughts: You probably want matching furniture front and back. That leaves me with two suggestions. 1. Go all Synthetic. Using a Choate or ATI dragunov type stock and a US made FCG will take care of your US parts compliance. All black matching synthetic. 2. Go all wood. Never heard of laminate handguards for Saigas and I don't make any, so it would be solid wood both ways if you went with my products. If you did happen to find a dragunov stock that would match a wooden handguard from me, using a US piston in addition to the US made FCG would take care of your parts compliance even if the stock was foreign. If you are a fan of the real Dragunov stocks and not just the basic idea, I'm working on offering the best imagineable answer (prototyped on another fellow's PSL.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
danny boy 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 My first WASR lo cap was 100% Romanian as well, so if you leave it lowcap you'd have precidence if for some strange reason a BATF agent would inquire about it. I do agree that the ATi Drag stock is an excellent replacement stock. I have one on both my S308 and my PSL. They're a little on the heavy side though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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