metalgodlb 30 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Oh I'm sure now that it's a domestic round the arf guys (no offense) will get the Calvary called.. I'm not saying something shouldnt be done, It just ruffles my feathers that no one bothers to stir anything up when imported firearms or ammunition are involved. Hopefully the NRA gets involved in this one, I'm sure that their inbox is full on this deal... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Yes every time the government does something let's attack the NRA. Cause everything is their fault. I just looked at the letter again and it wasn't written by the NRA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spacehog 2,219 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 XM855 can be reloaded and reproduced easily by hand. Manufacturers will find a way to recreate the M855 load without calling it M855. If it is the steel core that bothers the gov, I would remind them that that steel core actually does less damage to tissue. I would much rather take an 855 round to a non vital point than many of the "sporting use" ammunition. It is the difference between passing though cleanly, or making a mess of things with fragmentation and expansion. All 5.56 is going to defeat body armor anyway minus plates so really what is the difference? It's stupid as hell. There is no logical point. It's an excuse to ban more shit. That's it.Just like the FDA pounces on any opportunity to classify and ban a new intoxicating substance as soon as it's invented, the ATF will always find new way to justify its existence by straining to invent new crimes. After rereading my post this morning, I think I may have left the wrong impression. My point was intended to illustrate the stupidity in the logic of the BATF in banning the round to begin with. It doesn't make anyone including law enforcement officers safer. Just wanted to clarify, because I am mad as hell about this just like everyone else. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Curiously everyone is out of stock? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Curiously everyone is out of stock? The big question for manufacturers is "Do I make more?". If I'm in the cartridge manufacturing business and I'm making M855 for the military I'm a happy camper. Then the military sales dry up but I can still sell to the civilian market. Everybody has 2 or 3 ARs these days so life is still good. But now there is a threat of a ban on manufacture, sale, and transfer to citizens. If I knew there would be a grandfather for ammo made before the ban I'd crank up the line and make as much as possible. But what if there is no grandfather? What if they just say "no more sales"? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Time for Congress to de-fund the BATFE. Give them a $0 budget. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
metalgodlb 30 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Darth, I may have come across as blaming the NRA although that was not my intention. I was simply stating the fact that in the past any import restrictions written into law (the barrel ban, 7n6 etc) were not met with much backlash due to the low amount of people it affects. I wasn't trying to say that is the NRA's responsibility, it is all of ours. The NRA without a doubt is a priceless asset to us gun owners and Im scared to think where we would be without them. The point of my post was just to say that since an extremely popular cartridge is being attacked and my hope is that more people will come to rise in trying to get this some attention. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
metalgodlb 30 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Also after re reading the entire thread I realize that may not have been aimed at me. Regardless, are any of us optimistic that this could be the last straw for many people? The Batfe is getting away with all of this because every other branch of government knows squat about firearms and they trust the Batfe to make the right decisions (mostly because they don't understand or care) so the are never questioned for their actions. This is a serious breakdown of the "checks and balances" that are supposed to be in place in our government to keep these very things from happening. I know most of you know all of this already. Rant over Also after re reading the entire thread I realize that may not have been aimed at me. Regardless, are any of us optimistic that this could be the last straw for many people? The Batfe is getting away with all of this because every other branch of government knows squat about firearms and they trust the Batfe to make the right decisions (mostly because they don't understand or care) so the are never questioned for their actions. This is a serious breakdown of the "checks and balances" that are supposed to be in place in our government to keep these very things from happening. I know most of you know all of this already. Rant over Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Curiously everyone is out of stock? The big question for manufacturers is "Do I make more?". If I'm in the cartridge manufacturing business and I'm making M855 for the military I'm a happy camper. Then the military sales dry up but I can still sell to the civilian market. Everybody has 2 or 3 ARs these days so life is still good. But now there is a threat of a ban on manufacture, sale, and transfer to citizens. If I knew there would be a grandfather for ammo made before the ban I'd crank up the line and make as much as possible. But what if there is no grandfather? What if they just say "no more sales"? There is no grandfather clause, for anyone with an FFL. As soon as ATF formally declares it AP pistol ammo, it becomes illegal for anyone with an FFL to transfer it to anyone who is not either an approved LE/mil agency or has an approved reason for possession (like body armor testing), or another FFL holder. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Here's my question. Is there anything they could possibly go after m193 for? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brad cole 65 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 There is no one looking out for us these days . the majority of elected officals have the same wants and its bad for liberty.The good thing is we still have freedom ( for a short time longer). I just can't see the slowing down anytime soon, we are in for dark days I'm afraid. hopefully we will recall this years from now and laugh at the idea of a TAX STAMP, but I doubt it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aka_mythos 35 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 In fairness to the elected officials who try to defend our rights, this just broke on the weekend and even in the best of circumstances it'll take them time to strategize the best approach for dealing with this. Monday is presedent's day and these offices are closed for the long weekend, no doubt this is why this weekend is when we found out, it dulls our ability to react.This is a decision imposed by the executive branch. The legislative can either re-write the law or re-budget the agency both take time. The Judicial branch can only really react if someone sues, that means atleast waiting until a weekday when the courts are open. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aka_mythos 35 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Time for Congress to de-fund the BATFE. Give them a $0 budget Congress would need to be more precise in its actions than defunding the BATFE. Consider the fact than the 1986 ban on the manufacturing of machineguns by unlicensed manufacturers was done by zeroing out the BATFE's budget for processing the forms necessary to do so. If you zero out the BATFE's funding entirely you effectively ban all NFA items, you ban new FFL's, and a whole bunch of other things. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SmilinEd 364 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Time for Congress to de-fund the BATFE. Give them a $0 budget Congress would need to be more precise in its actions than defunding the BATFE. Consider the fact than the 1986 ban on the manufacturing of machineguns by unlicensed manufacturers was done by zeroing out the BATFE's budget for processing the forms necessary to do so. If you zero out the BATFE's funding entirely you effectively ban all NFA items, you ban new FFL's, and a whole bunch of other things. So maybe congress should jerk them around. I'm for it, they want to legislate, send them home. WTH, this ppl are paid by the taxpayer and just sit in cubicle all day making shit up. Fuck them, defund, send them home 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Here's my question. Is there anything they could possibly go after m193 for? Considering that SS109 clearly does NOT meet the definition of armor piercing pistol ammunition... Under the law, adopted in 1986, “armor piercing ammunition” is defined as “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.” A second definition, added in the 1990s, includes “a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” There is no way to stretch SS109 to meet either of those definitions. So the inference is that the batfuckers are using some other definition and there is no reason to assume that any 5.56/223 is safe at this point. Edited February 16, 2015 by Darth Saigus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 PPU M193 at Sportsman's Guide, $190/600 with free shipping coupon code. That's just under $0.32/rd shipped. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) email to: APAComments@atf.gov I have emailed the batfe and both my senators and my representative stating that M855 ammunition does not meet the definition of armor piercing handgun ammunition by law. You should all do the same. . . Edited February 16, 2015 by Darth Saigus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Wolf gold is nonmagnetic.. No steel means not AP. The whole thing is silly.. The justification is that you can hide a AR pistol in your pocket, or in your pants. Its simply not possible to do what they are saying.. Any garment that is hiding an AR pistol, is more a tent than a shirt. The whole reason for the law is that a criminal could pull a hidden pistol and shoot through the officers body armor, which is logically a concern if you have AP 9mm or similar. Just need to adjust the law to read " § 478.37 Manufacture, importation and sale of armor piercing ammunition. No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition, except: (a) The manufacture or importation, or the sale or delivery by any manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof; ( The manufacture, or the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the purpose of exportation; or © The sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of armor piercing ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimentation as authorized by the Director under the provisions of § 478.149.-- Repealed by congress 2/16/2015." Fixed. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 The batfuckers are using the tiny steel insert to justify this when clearly SS109 is not armor piercing. I can point to a dozen tests showing that M193 will penetrate soft body armor just as well as M855. If they get away with this how long until all fmj gets "redesigned" into "armor piercing". Speak up! 4 emails today! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Keep prepping. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 hmmmm, AR ammo banned, not sure if to need to care. Its not like the AK ammo they banned which I cared about and did the contact my reps thing. jk,jk,jk,jk I do care and have made my voice heard. Just wait till they find out that the "hunting rounds" that have a lead tip still penetrate and do much more damage then those do to an officer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SmilinEd 364 Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Mark Levin talking about the back door ban of the 223 ammo, only a hand gun, talking about rifle rounds in single shot hand guns and how those cals could be banned also.... Love Mark Levin Also he is saying that EPA will push to ban lead ammo too Edited February 19, 2015 by SmilinEd 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Well this is what happens when common sense and compromise is applied to fundamental rights. Yeah we have compromised ourselves into the situation where lead ammo is banned by the EPA and non-lead is banned by the BATFE. Yeah no plan here. As soon as the NFA was allowed to stand this was just a matter of time and opportunity and it always will be until all these pretty rifles become clubs. Anyone making any case for the NFA is not a friend of the right to keep and tote arms. Yeah we are so much better off being reasonable, keep voting. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 OK I'll bite. (I know I shouldn't...) If voting is a bad idea, tell us your alternative. You must have a better plan, right? Should we loot the local 7-11? Should we all build short barreled machine gun destructive devices and march in the town square? Should we start shooting politicians? Cause if you aren't doing something that works better than voting then what's your point? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 The point is to question it and ask yourself why settle on a path that clearly is ineffective. Because that's what is generally claimed as the only civilized path even as we fall further in the abyss? Or is it the only path that does not require risk? Remember all those Dead Elephants that claimed they needed electing to stop BO's amnesty? Yeah they got elected in a landslide and once in office claimed there was nothing they could do to stop it. They never intended to stop anything. Take voting out of the mix and what is left, seriously. Disobedience. Delegitimization. It has been said if voting worked it would be made illegal. One has to recognize the unpleasant truths first. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 It's not voting thats the problem. It's the fact that the people whom are voted for are liars, and we stupidly fall in line and vote for only one party or the other, but they DEMS and REPUBS have the SAME GOALS. Divide and conquer. Don't let lables fool you...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
read_the_wall 614 Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 midway http://www.midwayusa.com/product/546504/carl-gustaf-556x45mm-nato-62-grain-steel-core-penetrator-full-metal-jacket-10-round-clips-in-ammo-can-of-1000?cm_mmc=pe_weekly-_-hotbuy-_-targeted_gustaf556_20150219_3-_-Main_Image Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tatonic 159 Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 I could present a comprimise. Since the issue concerns Pistol ammo, batf could rule that 855 can only be used in guns with barrel legths of 16" or longer. No difference in a ruling like that than the rule stating No stocks on pistols. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 I could present a comprimise. Since the issue concerns Pistol ammo, batf could rule that 855 can only be used in guns with barrel legths of 16" or longer. No difference in a ruling like that than the rule stating No stocks on pistols. No compromises. We've given up too much for too long. There is NO comprimies when the other side has nothing to offer. Your "comprimise" is just begging them not to take as much". Fuck them. Look at the 1934 GCA, 1968, 1986 Huges amendment, 1994 AWB, The Brady law, Ban of Chinese firearms, Russian Firearms, 7n6, Surplus 762 ammo... tell me what did WE GET in exchange for any of those infringements on our rights? Nope, I'm DONE giving up anything. Repeat after me "NOT ONE MORE INCH" 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 It's not voting thats the problem. It's the fact that the people whom are voted for are liars, and we stupidly fall in line and vote for only one party or the other, but they DEMS and REPUBS have the SAME GOALS. Divide and conquer. Don't let lables fool you...... Given that the two parties have made it all but legally(and I use the term loosely) impossible for any other party to make headway then your vote is already compromised. We learned a lot during the fiasco surrounding the Ron Paul effort in 2012. Mainly that the game is rigged from the get go. It is not that voting in and of itself is flawed but it is now entirely corrupted. Even when the perceived "good guys" win not much changes does it. And that is a big "well hell". Think on this; If voting were no longer possible what could be done? There is where the answers lay. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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