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whatmanual

first 7N6, now M855 proposed

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All the arguments about voting are pointless as long as this one fact holds:  The person living in the white house and the assholes in congress are the ones who got more votes (even if a lot of those votes are fraudulent).  So not voting changes nothing.  If 90% of people stopped voting it would change nothing except it would just be that much easier for the left to "find" enough votes to win.

 

Until somebody comes up with a plan to change things that:

 

1. Works

2. Doesn't get you killed

3. Doesn't get you thrown in prison

 

Then talk is cheap.

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Some extra actions I take going into primary and general elections

 

Time volunteered doing,

 

Door 2 door

working the poll

getting yard signs into like minded individuals yards

Lit drops

Coordinated county wide support for like minded candidates 

Phone calls

Contribute Money

 

That is what our enemies are doing to us.

I think many have lost their will to fight, sleeves rolled up fight.

 

I would entertain the idea of a protest, state capitol, D.C., a lot of red meat in the water for a number issues that would resonate with the silent majority..

 

Anyhow, most would shoot the wrong ppl, most don't even know who the enemy is.

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All the arguments about voting are pointless as long as this one fact holds:  The person living in the white house and the assholes in congress are the ones who got more votes (even if a lot of those votes are fraudulent).  So not voting changes nothing.  If 90% of people stopped voting it would change nothing except it would just be that much easier for the left to "find" enough votes to win.

 

Until somebody comes up with a plan to change things that:

 

1. Works

2. Doesn't get you killed

3. Doesn't get you thrown in prison

 

Then talk is cheap.

 

See we actually agree on some things, number one it must work and I hold voting is not working no matter how much we wish it.

 

That would be a decision folks have to make on their own as once the voting process became hopelessly tainted everything else carries a heck of a downside. Maybe should have fought harder to keep it I reckon but a lot of that was done before any of us drew a breath.

 

Talk isn't really all that cheap any longer or haven't you noticed. Natural progression of totalitarianism is that speech is attacked along with the debasement of voting. Net neutrality anyone? 

 

Perhaps the reason we cannot vote ourselves out of this is because voting carries no real risk so requires little reflection?

Polling places are reasonably secure, no one knows how you voted, the candidates are pretty much pre-selected, political machines in full form so little chance of anything carrying the consequences of needed change. 

 

Whenever risk presents itself either in the form of coercion or radical ideas (Ron Paul for example) people present some fairly predictable behavior.

They think, perhaps badly but they do. Why... because people are freaking invested.

 

This subject alone could have volumes written because it goes right to the root of what is happening.

So question everything in particular those things taken for granted.

 

We all know why voting in national and even statewide elections isnt working, the sane are outnumbered and TPTB are picking the choices.

Some have chosen not to provide this situation with legitimacy by participating and so do look for alternatives.

Edited by Rhodes1968

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Now there's a big ass run on 223, most places shows none in stock. CTD doesn't show any, probably jacking the price way up before relisting it.

All by design.

 

You see it was getting cheap again and this is a prime example of the corporations and fed in bed together to take are money.  

 

Nothing like a little scare to get you and I to buy at a high rate!!

 

This shit is really getting old!!!!!!

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Now there's a big ass run on 223, most places shows none in stock. CTD doesn't show any, probably jacking the price way up before relisting it.

All by design.

 

You see it was getting cheap again and this is a prime example of the corporations and fed in bed together to take are money.  

 

Nothing like a little scare to get you and I to buy at a high rate!!

 

This shit is really getting old!!!!!!

 

 

Yes that's what it is. Ammo manufacturers got together and approached the fed saying "hey can you guys ban this so that we have less to sell in the long run!" Or is it the distributors? Maybe they were running out of storage and needed something banned to free up space. Cause we all know that having less products to sell really pays off in the long run. This little run will be over and then what? Are they going to just keep asking to ban everything one by one so that they can make a few bucks more in the short run?  

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It's no wonder the left keeps winning.

 

Every time the left attacks a group, anybody not part of that group just says "meh, not me".  I've been hearing gun owners and so-called "pro Second Amendment" people saying this ban is no big deal.  Nobody "needs" that ammo, right? 

 

Even if you don't have anything that shoots 5.56.  Even if you would never use M855 because it sucks.  You should be fighting this!

 

Every freedom they take from "somebody else" is just another step to taking something from YOU!

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This article has some good suggestions and links on how to make your voice heard.

 

It makes a difference, every phone call, email, fax, letter to your representatives.

 

NRA has it's faults but it's still our best hope to fight for our special interest.

 

Stand and fight people.

 

http://bearingarms.com/confirmed-nra-lawmakers-will-fight-atfs-m855-rifle-ammunition-ban/

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I'm very glad to see this getting as much attention as it has been. I haven't been able to go onto any of my normal internet sites and not had a ton of information requesting to support the 2A and send info in to the BATFE regarding this. Seems to have really taken off, enough so that the ATF Facebook page has now even gotten involved requesting peoples opinions of it. Hope we win out in the end and they make some changes to this that are positive, and if we are lucky, get us back 7N6. I know unlikely, but a man can dream beer.gif

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Now there's a big ass run on 223, most places shows none in stock. CTD doesn't show any, probably jacking the price way up before relisting it.

Take a look at SGAmmo.  No stock on almost everything.  For imported 5.56 all they have is the Geco Sold Out.  No imported 7.62x39 except the brass case stuff.

 

I didn't think this would cause another panic but I admit I did order a case of Wolf Gold and a case of x39 in just in case there was a run.

Edited by Darth Saigus

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What I don't get is the criteria that is listed by the BATF is that they are protecting officers from AP ammo that could be used in small and concealable pistols..

 

How are they classifying a AR-15 pistol as concealable? They are like 20+ inches long and about 7 inches tall, its like trying to hide a VCR in your clothing.. Its probably easier to hide a mauser down your pant leg than to get an AR pistol to hide in clothing.

 

So using that logic the pistols are most likely sporting as they are more suited to that use than daily carry, much like single shot pistols.

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Yeah, I can see them go after x39 next...the wife saw an AK pistol at the gun show and wants one now. But since it is a rifle round that can be fired from a pistol....that will be the ATFs next likely step.

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Time to start writing letters on a daily basis.

Hammer them with the facts, not likely to get through to them, nor make any difference.

 

Here is an excellent letter, copy/paste & fill in your info.

 

 

please feel free to use this letter verbatum. It is a largely modified version of Adam Kraut esq.'s form letter that better clarifies just what it is they are banning with evidence.

To whom it may concern,

I am writing to voice my opposition to the proposed change in framework to determine whether certain projectiles are "primarily intended for sporting purposes" under 18 USC § 921(a)(17)© and I want to know how you and your colleges plan to reel them back in as they are demonstrating a repeated use of poor judgement.

But just so we are all on the same page, let me briefly explain just what M855 ammo is.

M855 ammo is a 5.56x45 NATO caliber cartridge featuring a low flash powder, higher chamber pressures and velocities as compared to the commercial SAAMI counterpart .223 Remington, and the SS109 projectile which is a 62 grain projectile constructed of a mild steel ogive (the front of the bullet to to where the diameter reaches .224 inches, weighing 10 grains), lead core (from the end of the ogive to the base of the projectile, weighing 41.2 grains) and a partial copper jacket (the base of the projectile exposes the lead core, weighing 10.8 grains).

18 USC § 921(a)(17)(B) reads:

The term "armor piercing ammunition" means—

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;

or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

Now lets focus for a moment on part (ii). the SS109 is a .224 caliber bullet, which makes it larger than .220, however it was designed in the mid to late 1970's and was intended to be fired from a rifle. As I've indicated above, the jacket weight of the projectile only constitutes 17.4% of the total 62 grain weight of the projectile. This interpretation does not apply, so let's move on to part (i).

Part one says that a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun AND which is is constructed ENTIRELY of one or a combination of Tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or DU. As the core of the SS109 is, as i've demonstrated above, actually Lead and not any of those others listed, it too does not satisfactorily define the projectile as armor piercing, even if you were to consider that the 10 grain ogive is made of steel.

Just because a projectile MAY be used in a handgun does not mean it poses any real threat to law enforcement and could not be and in fact IS on an overwhelmingly large occasion used for sporting purposes. ATF in its proposed framework has now decided to arbitrarily reclassify SS109/M855 as armor piercing. It is my position that ATF does not have the authority to do so as SS109/M855 does not meet the statutory criteria of being armor piercing in the slightest.

The claimed purpose of this change is to "protect the lives and safety of law enforcement officers from the threat posed by ammunition capable of penetrating a protective vest when fired from a handgun". As was known and voiced by it's sponsors when the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act of 1986 was passed, the type of body armor that law enforcement employs on a daily basis is NOT capable of stopping any centerfire rifle round. Body armor rated for threat levels of IIA and IIIA are rated for certain pistol cartridges only.

Claiming that a ban on SS109/M855 will protect the lives of law enforcement officers is disingenuous and an egregious abuse of authority to remove an exemption for which ATF had no power to grant in the first place. I ask that you give this matter your full attention.

Thank you for your time and consideration,

[your real name]
[your real street address]
[your real city, state, and zip code]
[your real phone number]
[your real email address]

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This came up on the Five yesterday. Sadly the only one who knew anything was Juan Williams and all he did was spew the ATF reasoning for the ban. 

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Given the following is true;

 

https://www.full30.com/video/bb4bb9aff53dc8d0be5718c7982bf55b

 

Then it can be deduced this action has nothing to do with making armor obsolete.

 

Still say the point of the ban isnt clear, sometimes stupidity is just that.

Do know Liberty is selling more ammo today than yesterday.

Which makes me wonder if going all copper is such a bad idea.

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This is getting a lot more attention in the media than I ever expected.

 

There is no question most people are against it.

 

So will they just do it anyway? I think they will.

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What's to stop them? A few hundred thousand emails, fax, and phone calls? This isn't the first ammo banned, does anyone think it will stop here? They used the back door to get to the front of the house and they make the rules. Who has stood in the way of the (B)ATFE and lived? Who has the funds to challenge them in court? Federal laws aside. They're part of the Justice Dept. Certainly, the stockpile out there isn't going to disappear overnight, but they could add a "no trade or exchange of this ammunition for any purpose" and you become a criminal for sharing. Like I'm going to tell them what I'm using the bayonet lug for or the SIG brace. All my points are speculation, but this horse is going to be tough to rein.

Still can't get certain videos to post, crap.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqomZQMZQCQ

Edited by sobrenegade

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As if this ban wasn't dubious enough, I present the following:

A ruling in favor of a Florida ammunition maker will tack a 1.4-cents-per-round royalty onto some small-caliber "green bullets."
635574357802532133-size0-army.mil-107872

(Photo: C. Todd Lopez/Army)

CONNECT 75 TWEET 37 LINKEDINCOMMENTEMAILMORE

The U.S. government will pay a Florida ammunition-maker more than $15.6 million after losing a patent-infringement lawsuit regarding the design of M855A1 and M80A1 rounds.

Liberty Ammunition also will receive royalties of 1.4 cents per round on that ammunition until the patent expires in 2027, according to the U.S. Court of Federal Claims ruling, issued in late December and first reported in the Bradenton (Fla.) Herald. That could mean several millions more in payout: The government, primarily the Army, ordered more than 158 million of the M855A1 rounds in fiscal 2013, the lawsuit states, and Army budget documents show plans to purchase at least 65 million M855A1 rounds of various types in fiscal 2015.

The government is "considering its options on appeal," Justice Department spokeswoman Nicole Navas said in an email. Army public affairs personnel would not comment, citing pending litigation.

"We're very satisfied with the judgment," George Phillips, Liberty's chief executive officer, said Wednesday. "The [court] upheld our contention that the government had violated our patent ... and PJ Marx, our inventor and founder, is now acknowledged as the inventor of enhanced-performance-round technology.

Marx, an established inventor in the music industry who began pursuing a better bullet after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, first spoke with Army officials about his Enhanced Performance Incapacitative Composite round in 2004, the ruling states. Marx filed a patent application on the EPIC round in 2005 which five years later became Patent No. 7,748,325, the patent at the heart of the lawsuit.

Judge Charles Lettow found the government's ammunition design infringed on the patent, the rights of which Marx assigned to Liberty, a company he founded in 2005. Lettow did not side with Liberty on allegations that the government violated three nondisclosure agreements made between Marx and various military officials during the ammunition-development process. The NDAs weren't ratified by the Army or U.S. Special Operations Command, Lettow ruled, and thus did not constitute enforceable contracts.

Phillips would not put a figure on the possible total compensation through 2027 but said he expected government ammunition purchases to remain fairly constant over that time period.

The lead-free 5.56mm EPRs "improve hard and soft target performance" while containing "an environmentally friendly projectile," according to an online fact sheet from Army Acquisition Support Center. The Army began shipping the so-called "green bullet" to Afghanistan in 2010, replacing M855 ammunition that had been developed after the Vietnam War and entered into wide use in the early 1980s.

Liberty filed its suit in 2011. The case reached trial last June, with closing arguments in October.


and lastly:

Police say Obama bullet ban isn't needed, AR-15 round isn't a threat
By Paul Bedard | March 3, 2015 | 3:06 pm
 
 
w200-n_562326d17ee15ef0c48972d6496007b8. AP Photo

A top police representative on Tuesday said that there is no history of criminals using a round popular among AR-15 rifle shooters against officers, undermining the Obama administration's argument for banning the 5.56 M855 "lightgreen tip."

"Any ammunition is of concern to police in the wrong hands, but this specific round has historically not posed a law enforcement problem," said James Pasco, executive director of the Washington office of the Fraternal Order of Police, the world's largest organization of sworn law enforcement officers, with more than 325,000 members.

He told Secrets that the round used mostly for target practice "is not typically used against law enforcement."

While he said that he is "not finding fault" with the surprise move last month by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to classify the round as "armor piercing" and then ban it, Pasco added, "While this round will penetrate soft body armor, it has not historically posed a threat to law enforcement."

More Stories

That view not only counters BATFE's reason for proposing the ban, it also challenges the White House endorsement of the ban. Spokesman Josh Earnest said Monday, "we are looking at additional ways to protect our brave men and women in law enforcement and believe that this process is valuable for that reason alone. This seems to be an area where everyone should agree that if there are armor-piercing bullets available that can fit into easily concealed weapons, that it puts our law enforcement at considerably more risk."

The administration's effort is under fire on Capitol Hill where 55 percent of all House members have signed a letter challenging BATFE's proposal.

Led by House Judiciary Committee Chairman Rep. Bob Goodlatte and the National Rifle Association, 235 members have signed the letter. The signatures came in at a record pace since Goodlatte's team and the NRA have been circulating it for just three business days.

A similar effort is moving quickly through the Senate, led by Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Sen. Chuck Grassley.

As with most rounds used in rifles, the 5.56 M855 will shoot through soft body armor, but was granted an exemption to longstanding police protection legislation because it isn't used by criminals who typically use smaller pistols.

BATFE said that with the popularity of AR-style pistols growing, the weapon poses a new threat to police. But foes of the bullet ban say that criminals are unlikely to spend the $1,000 or more to by one and also that at about 20 inches long, it isn't considered a concealed weapon.

Many gun enthusiasts believe that the proposed bullet ban, up for public comment, is a backdoor bid to cut the popularity of the AR-15, the nation's most popular gun, one critics call an "assault weapon" and a target of liberals and President Obama.

Paul Bedard, the Washington Examiner's "Washington Secrets" columnist, can be contacted at pbedard@washingtonexaminer.com.

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Fraternal Order of Police has called BS on ATF's claims of protecting police, states that it knows of no officer who has ever been shot with M855.

 

http://washingtonexaminer.com/police-say-ar-15-bullet-up-for-ban-is-not-a-threat-countering-atf-white-house/article/2560964

Edited by mancat
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Fraternal Order of Police has called BS on ATF's claims of protecting police, states that it knows of no officer who has ever been shot with M855.

 

http://washingtonexaminer.com/police-say-ar-15-bullet-up-for-ban-is-not-a-threat-countering-atf-white-house/article/2560964

thats actaully the second half of my post.

but yep.

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I'm still waiting for somebody with a real voice to remind them that M855/SS109 does NOT fit the ATF's own definition of what qualifies as AP ammo.

 

 

The ATF's definition of AP.

 

 

18 USC § 921(a)(17)( 8 reads:
The term "armor piercing ammunition" means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;
or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

 

 

 

M855 ammo is a 5.56x45 NATO caliber cartridge featuring a low flash powder, higher chamber pressures and velocities as compared to the commercial SAAMI counterpart .223 Remington, and the SS109 projectile which is a 62 grain projectile constructed of a mild steel ogive (the front of the bullet to to where the diameter reaches .224 inches, weighing 10 grains), lead core (from the end of the ogive to the base of the projectile, weighing 41.2 grains) and a partial copper jacket (the base of the projectile exposes the lead core, weighing 10.8 grains).

Now lets focus for a moment on part (ii). the SS109 is a .224 caliber bullet, which makes it larger than .220, however it was designed in the mid to late 1970's and was intended to be fired from a rifle. As I've indicated above, the jacket weight of the projectile only constitutes 17.4% of the total 62 grain weight of the projectile. This interpretation does not apply, so let's move on to part (i).

Part one says that a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun AND which is is constructed ENTIRELY of one or a combination of Tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or DU. As the core of the SS109 is, as i've demonstrated above, actually Lead and not any of those others listed, it too does not satisfactorily define the projectile as armor piercing, even if you were to consider that the 10 grain ogive is made of steel.

Just because a projectile MAY be used in a handgun does not mean it poses any real threat to law enforcement and could not be and in fact IS on an overwhelmingly large occasion used for sporting purposes. ATF in its proposed framework has now decided to arbitrarily reclassify SS109/M855 as armor piercing. It is my position that ATF does not have the authority to do so as SS109/M855 does not meet the statutory criteria of being armor piercing in the slightest.

Edited by ChileRelleno
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Do not put anything past this agency. For those that may remember Randy Weaver, he didn't trust the system and paid the price many times over. The BATFE is not a stranger to abusing their power and those it deems suspect. If you think they will be fair and benevolent, think again. Randy is only one example.  

I credit Wikipedia,

 

"After Weaver refused to cooperate, ATF passed on false information about Weaver to other agencies that became part of a misleading file that profiled Weaver as having explosive booby traps, tunnels and bunkers at his home; growing marijuana; having felony convictions; and being a bank robber".

 

"Other agencies" included the US Marshall Service and the FBI. Not exactly three lightweight pencil pushing agencies I want to fight it out with.

The Japanese Samurai used thick sole leather in the construction of their "armor" (as did most everyone until metal was used). Hell, I've got bb guns that go through leather. Know your opponent. It's not going to stop with green tip.

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Seems the public comment process is a complete sham... the surprise almost killed me.

 

 

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761

 

Edit: Basically the printed regs already show the round banned.

Edited by Rhodes1968
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