Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hello All , I have heard about the ban on Green tips { ss109 } as I am sure you all have . My wife decides she needs some Wally world items soap razor blades etc, I take a stroll back to sporting goods to see if there is any zq1 308 on the shelf apparently the sheep have panicked , as the wolf is at the door. There was not 1 box of 5.56 , .223 , .7.62 x 51 or 308 on the shelf. I ask the old Korea war vet who works back there what was up and he said they couldn't keep it on the shelves . I come back home and start looking on the net and several of the places I shop at are out of the bulk stuff only the premium stuff is left . I don't use to much 5.56 stuff but Y"all get ready cause here they go stripping the shelves clean again the next great panic is here. I GUESS I SHOULD HAVE SAW THIS ONE COMING .

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just thinking at the beginning of the month that I would order some 1k cases of Wolf MC and Wolf Gold. Oops, so much for that. I did get in an order for 500rd Wolf MC today for the usual .24c/rd - some places are not price jacking on the normal .223, but it's selling out quick.

 

Oh well. I have a large stash of x39 and haven't been shooting that much any way.

 

I have read varying reports on Walmart shelves. Some are not being raided at all. Varies by location.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Our Cabela's is completely out of cheap 7.62x39 now which seems kind of odd, they had a pretty good supply of it just a week ago.

 

Even though I don't shoot it, they seem to still have a decent stash of .223.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It sure seems like there is more to this story than meets the eye.

 

I hate to go all tin foil here but it doesn't add up for me that supply would dry up so fast at the mere mention of a particular round.

 

Speculators maybe ? Hoping prices will skyrocket again? Smokeless powder and other components? Still hit and miss availability at nearly double the price after all this time?

 

On the bright side, firearms are on the shelves and at nearly pre-panic pricing. Even better than pre-panic in some cases.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole of the ATF's stance on this particular round is entirely false & full of shit.

 

M855 ammo is a 5.56x45 NATO caliber cartridge featuring a low flash powder, higher chamber pressures and velocities as compared to the commercial SAAMI counterpart .223 Remington, and the SS109 projectile which is a 62 grain projectile constructed of a mild steel ogive (the front of the bullet to to where the diameter reaches .224 inches, weighing 10 grains), lead core (from the end of the ogive to the base of the projectile, weighing 41.2 grains) and a partial copper jacket (the base of the projectile exposes the lead core, weighing 10.8 grains).

18 USC § 921(a)(17)( 8 reads:

The term "armor piercing ammunition" means—

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;

or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.


Now lets focus for a moment on part (ii). the SS109 is a .224 caliber bullet, which makes it larger than .220, however it was designed in the mid to late 1970's and was intended to be fired from a rifle.

As I've indicated above, the jacket weight of the projectile only constitutes 17.4% of the total 62 grain weight of the projectile. This interpretation does not apply, so let's move on to part (i).

Part one says that a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun AND which is is constructed ENTIRELY of one or a combination of Tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or DU.

As the core of the SS109 is, as I've demonstrated above, actually Lead and not any of those others listed, it too does not satisfactorily define the projectile as armor piercing, even if you were to consider that the 10 grain ogive is made of steel.

Just because a projectile MAY be used in a handgun does not mean it poses any real threat to law enforcement and could not be and in fact IS on an overwhelmingly large occasion used for sporting purposes.

ATF in its proposed framework has now decided to arbitrarily reclassify SS109/M855 as armor piercing.

It is my position that ATF does not have the authority to do so as SS109/M855 does not meet the statutory criteria of being armor piercing in the slightest.

The claimed purpose of this change is to "protect the lives and safety of law enforcement officers from the threat posed by ammunition capable of penetrating a protective vest when fired from a handgun".

As was known and voiced by it's sponsors when the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act of 1986 was passed, the type of body armor that law enforcement employs on a daily basis is NOT capable of stopping any centerfire rifle round.  Body armor rated for threat levels of IIA and IIIA are rated for certain pistol cartridges only.

Claiming that a ban on SS109/M855 will protect the lives of law enforcement officers is disingenuous and an egregious abuse of authority to remove an exemption for which ATF had no power to grant in the first place.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm one of the stupid people who reacted to the announcement by immediately ordering more cases of ammo.

Darth, stocking up on M855, when it may no longer be available does not make you stupid. Panicking, and buying everything off the shelves in every caliber based on proposal to ban one specific type of 5.56 would. Sorry if I left the wrong impression.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Still a lot of folks out there with only minimal supplies of ammo that want more but are faced with having to justify the expense.

Sometimes this is the justification as later may be too late.

Too many people now live with hard choices on how to apply very limited resources so this becomes potentially the "last call".

 

 

One shouldn't cry stupidity when the future is this murky even if it seems so, hell may be literally the smartest thing they have done.

 

Like  Open Carry Texas, they may seem to be hurting more than helping but they are taking action at risk to themselves and that must be honored, sometimes by just keeping a reign on judgement.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm one of the stupid people who reacted to the announcement by immediately ordering more cases of ammo.

Darth, stocking up on M855, when it may no longer be available does not make you stupid. Panicking, and buying everything off the shelves in every caliber based on proposal to ban one specific type of 5.56 would. Sorry if I left the wrong impression.

 

No you didn't leave the wrong impression.  But maybe I did. I have no use for M855 and if that was the only ammunition I could use for my 5.56 rifles I'd just sell them.  That ammo is shit and I won't use it.

 

 I didn't buy M855.  I bought Wolf Gold 223 and Military Classic 7.62x39.

 

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

And the 2 lessons from history that apply in this case are:

 

1. Any threat of ban causes the shelves to empty.  We can't change that, so we just have to decide if we are going to act quickly and get some ammo or wait until it blows over.

 

2. Any infringement of freedom to anybody is a loss of freedom to everybody.  So I stand against the banning of that useless crap ammo that I will NEVER use. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Isnt Uncle in the process of changing out all the older ammo for the new "green" shit? 

 

Wouldnt that create a glut of cheap ammo if the old stuff hit the mil-surp market?

 

Doesnt this sort of derail that?

 

Does something smell fishy? Just asking...

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

With regard to 7.62x39, I'm noticing that people are reacting to this much more than last year when it was unclear if the sanctions on russia were going to have any impact on ammo supply...which i find a little odd. I was planning on building a 223/556 ar15 but i guess ill have to shelve those plans for the time being or at least till ammo prices are more reasonable.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And the 2 lessons from history that apply in this case are:

 

1. Any threat of ban causes the shelves to empty.  We can't change that, so we just have to decide if we are going to act quickly and get some ammo or wait until it blows over.

 

2. Any infringement of freedom to anybody is a loss of freedom to everybody.  So I stand against the banning of that useless crap ammo that I will NEVER use.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with your second point. I don't use M855 either and I have three AR's to feed. None-the-less, I have written and emailed my representatives demanding that they stand up against this abuse of power by the BATF. Apart from the freedom argument, banning any 5.56 is going to reduce supply and drive up demand and price on what's left.

 

Unfortunately, your first point is spot on as well, but it shouldn't be. That is where my frustration lies. If people were as passionate about standing up and writing their representatives as they were about seeking and buying every last drop of ammo on the shelves, we might actually change some things. Panic buying and empty store shelves are bad for everyone. I buy ammo as I can afford a little at a time on a continual basis, because as I stated in another thread, I am not going to play the panic game anymore. Just my 2 cents

 

At any rate, thanks for your passion and call to do something about the ban on the other thread. We need to all keep pushing.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

As my Dad and I used to say, it always came down to that five letter word, GREED. The same greedy bastards that drove up the price on .22s are thinking the same with 5.56. No shortage, just someone doesn't want you to have any. When gas was going sky high, he would say, "does raising the price eliminate the shortage?" Of course not, but it slows people down. Watch what happens when the 7.62x39 rumor starts. I still can't get.22s at WM and yesterday all the .223 was out of the case (not that I needed or wanted any). Just another thing for me to bitch about.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought a bunch of green tip back a few years ago between panics. I have yet to shoot it as it is just in a part of my collection of ammo cans sitting around waiting for use. I don't really care if M855 dries up and is never heard from again. As has been said in here, the ammo isn't that great to begin with, there are better, cheaper, more accurate alternatives to it. That being said, if I had the extra to go and buy up a bunch of it before the price is through the roof, I probably would. I don't care for the ammo but I do care how they are trying to get rid of it. If they want to stop production because it sucks ass, more power to them. Making it illegal for sale to civilians due to some bullshit ass lie about what it MIGHT do from a pistol against police officers, which they have yet to provide any proof of, Is just fucked. Plain ol' fucked. This is a case of them vs us, and if they get away with this you can guarantee x54R, x51, and x39 7.62 rounds will be hunted by them next. Keep writing in to reps, the ATF, and anyone that is willing to listen. Buy whatever you can of anything that comes in surplus because if we don't stop them here, they're coming for the rest of the surplus next.

Edited by VR6Shooter
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't use nor care for green tip junk but the point is the BATF needs to back the fuck off it.

 

Give these commie loving fuckers one nanometer and they will take a fucking country mile.

 

This is way bigger than a reclassification of some shitty surplus ammo. It's a test to see if America will be asleep at the wheel when they ban our arms by regulating ammo.

 

Fuck that shit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

sportsmansguide is nearly out of all x39 ammo.  they normally have a bunch.  sgammo only has silverbear left.  Gander mountain shows no anticipated delivery of x39 and .22 LR for Indiana.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe they assuming it'll launch outta those lil sxs or whatever 223 derringers that we all laughed at last year?

 

First they came for the sdn6 but I didnt care cause what is an ak 74 anyway, a typo?

 

Then they came for m855 but I don't care cause its not 30 cal or 12ga.

 

Then they came for.... Repeat ad infiitum

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

BATF is catching a lot of hell over this one. Banning bullets is just like raising taxes. Nobody cares until it affects them. Raise taxes on cigarettes...no problem, I don't smoke. Ban 7N6... OK I don't own an AK-74. Ban a cartridge that I shoot...WTF?

 

I have to admit, I am really surprised that x39 has been depleted by a proposal to ban M855. I understand the concept, if it can be shot out of a pistol and can penetrate body armor, which we all know any rifle caliber from hunting to military round will, it is not safe from the new director (Obama puppet) of the BATF. But for crying out loud, this is ridiculous.

 

Many on the board have said, "Buy it cheap and stack it deep". I will reiterate that mantra for times like these. When the panic is over, I'll keep buying, but in the meantime I will still be shooting.

 

Call your Reps and give them hell!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...