RAA S-12's have 17.2" barrels

[sniper_n_training 0]

This almost reminds me of when I bought my 22" S12 a couple years back. I took it to a local smith who I instructed to cut down to 19" (I didnt want to adjust gasport sizes, so I was told 19" was the way to go).

 

He ended up measuring from the wrong area and my barrel was taken down to 18.2 inches. I guess its good that its still on the legal side, but I ended up having to drill a 4th gas port (which I DIDNT want to do, but glad I did now).

[DaGroaner 2]

This is pretty typical for Rooskie stuff. I have a Dnepr motorcycle and sidecar rig, made in Ukraine. Their attention to detail is lacking in their motorcycles as well. But they build a very strong tractor like machine. You just have to expect to fix some stuff right from the factory.

 

Can I ask you how you got your bike into the US? I would like to get my hands on one of these:

 

http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/c-bikes_sportsman.htm

 

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[gazpacho 5]

Yeah, 17" + a smidge, once you unscrew the muzzle thingy.

 

Both of them.

 

Realisticly speaking, this is going to put RAAC out of business, right? What are the chances we are SOL, and will have to eat the cost of ownership?

Edited February 11, 2006 by Gazpacho

[ForGreatJustice 1]

My guess is that making a permanent extension is not going to be enough. Per the ATF's historical behavior, once an NFA weapon, ALWAYS an NFA weapon. In their eyes, these are illegally imported. My bet is they will attempt to send all the purchasers letters asking the guns be returned. Then, depending on how busy they are (after all, there are burning churchs in the south to worry about) and how much budget they have, they may tracking down the purchasers. That usually takes a long long time, but the ATF does get around to things they think are important. I doubt it will get UGLY, in the sense of agents harassing owners, but there will be a situation.

 

I think the safest bet (financially) would be to immediately register them all as SBS. The ATF would probably simply overlook them. I don't believe the ATF is any longer inclined to offer "amnesty" (even though periodic amnesty is better policy). These days, they tend to ask that you return stuff.

[KySoldier 2]

I think the safest bet (financially) would be to immediately register them all as SBS. The ATF would probably simply overlook them. I don't believe the ATF is any longer inclined to offer "amnesty" (even though periodic amnesty is better policy). These days, they tend to ask that you return stuff.

 

That would be great except the area I'm in now has already put out that they will not sign for NFA items. I want to move

[woofer2425 0]

This is pretty typical for Rooskie stuff. I have a Dnepr motorcycle and sidecar rig, made in Ukraine. Their attention to detail is lacking in their motorcycles as well. But they build a very strong tractor like machine. You just have to expect to fix some stuff right from the factory.

 

Can I ask you how you got your bike into the US? I would like to get my hands on one of these:

 

http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/c-bikes_sportsman.htm

 

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

Buy one from Lloyd at RAM (Russian American Motorcycles). He is the only one allowed by the DOT to sell a completed Dnepr, DOT approved, with a VIN number in the U.S. Or you can get a bunch of new and used parts from Yuri at Dneprworld, and put one together yourself. Check out the dneprheads forum at yahoo for lots more good info.

[tsargis 0]

Well...........doesn't this just BLOW............. shit!

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Holy shiott!

I can't believe it got this far. It's pretty easy to tell a barrel is that short. How do they run? They must have had the ports enlarged or something.

[expeditionx 1]

What are the chances the new 16inch saiga rifles are not really 16 inches either?

Edited February 11, 2006 by expeditionx

[expeditionx 1]

What are the chances the new 16inch saiga rifles are not really 16 inches either?

 

If the ATF confiscates all these Saiga-12's like they did the MAK-90s with the 3rd receiver holes (early 1990s), RAA is going to pass the loss to IZMASH, and some conrad that messed up is likely to lose a body part if hes lucky. "NFA law is about to cause blood shed in Russia." That would be a great Fox News headline.

 

I cant see why anyone in the 1930's figured short-barreled long guns were more menacing as a conceilable weapon than handguns.

 

 

 

If the ATF confiscates all these Saiga-12's like they did the MAK-90s with the 3rd receiver holes (early 1990s), RAA is going to pass the loss to IZMASH, and some conrad that messed up is likely to lose a body part if hes lucky. "NFA law is about to cause blood shed in Russia." That would be a great Fox News headline.

 

I cant see why anyone in the 1930's figured short-barreled long guns were more menacing as a conceilable weapon than handguns. I guess we can all thank Franklin D. Roosevelt for signing the first unconstitutional gun act which now is about to cause us a headache with these newly imported S-12's.

Edited February 11, 2006 by expeditionx

[ozone_00 3]

I don't have a S-12 yet so my question is, can a 24" model be threaded for chokes and is anybody selling choke sets?

[TEXASAK73 13]

Now this is some crappy news,I have one on order and is being converted.

[slag 12]

Now this is some crappy news,I have one on order and is being converted.

 

I would recommend that folks NOT convert or put any type of money (including SBR) until the BATF rules. More than likely this entire batch will all be recalled and cut up. This will also bring a tremendous amount of focus from the BATF on the S12 in general, focus we do not need...

 

This is a MAJOR screw up...

[RDSWriter 5]

Per the ATF's historical behavior, once an NFA weapon, ALWAYS an NFA weapon.

 

Wrong... once a machinegun always a machinegun. You can remove an SBR or SBS from the NFA registry by submitting a request to the ATF and informing them that the barrel is now longer than the required length or removing the barrel. I know of a C2 who did this for two SBR HK94s that he sold back onto the (general civilian) market. The ATF is more than happy to eliminate a firearm(if possible) from the NFA for some reason.... not really sure what their logic is as this is the best way to 'control' a firearm... but hey.... it's the ATF.

 

I'm not sure if AOWs can be removed, but I thought they can be as well... based on the same logic that the parts that make it an AOW are no longer part or connected with the firearm. Anyone know for sure on this board? If yes, please comment.

 

I don't believe the ATF is any longer inclined to offer "amnesty" (even though periodic amnesty is better policy). These days, they tend to ask that you return stuff.

 

Right - I agree. Even with my previous statement about being able to be removed, these firearms ARE contraband because they are NFA firearms, did not have the appropriate tax paid transfers and are technically illlegally imported/owned at this point. I HIGHLY doubt they will allow the current owner to register them. They are going to probably require all of them to go back to RAA which then can either weld a permanent extention.... or cut them up. If they were registered under the NFA, they could unregister them... but since they were never registered.... I don't know what the ATF will do. My money is on the cutting up... but given the precedent with the HKs... maybe not. BUT my main concern is that they were not in an importable configuration, therefore an unsporting shotgun per the 68GCA, therefore they are ...............

Edited February 11, 2006 by RDSWriter

[davidsuffolk 96]

This isn't the first time this has happened. When I was awaiting mine (about 2 years ago) via Decade in the UK (and remember we need a minimum of 24" here) the Russians sent short barreled making the whole batch what are termed "Section 5" here, putting them in the same class as machine guns. Whole lot had to be either returned or re-exported to another country with different rules.

 

I wouldn't leap to blame RAA yet as it's quite likely they were told they were getting one thing and actually delivered something quite different!

[AegisDei 2]

I don't have a S-12 yet so my question is, can a 24" model be threaded for chokes and is anybody selling choke sets?

The gun can be threaded for chokes, but it takes a good gunsmith. The barrel lining is pretty diesel, so it takes more than most are ready for and since the barrel isn't easily removed, most gunsmiths can't use their normal rig. I think Tromix (Tony Rumore) is set up to thread Saigas and once Tom Cole gets set up again, he can do them. Additionally, Poly-choke is an option. Just be darn sure your gunsmith feels confident before you give your gun to him as crooked threads will not make for the best shotgun.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

What about the other shotties? How long are the .410 and S-20 bbls? Were all the S-12s imported with short bbls?

Pyle, TopGlock, anyone?

[PvtPyle 0]

Everyone needs to calm down. This is NOT the first time this has happened, and the ATF did not decide that the others were NFA weapons and had them recalled or destroyed. There were a boat load of HK-53's that were brought in that had 15" bbls on them and the ATF said, you have 60 days to weld the flash hider on. It was as simple as that.

 

I am going to meet with RAAC in about 20 minutes, and we are going over to the ATF booth and explain the problem and ask for them to render a position letter on it and we will get it fixed.

 

For those that are wondering how this happened to some guns, but not others, part of the shipment is left overs from the EAA days. The others are newer manufacture, and these have the problem. It is simply a matter of the Russians not understanding our laws and the way things work over here. It is not an issue of them trying to screw over their new market and cost everyone money, and it is not an issue of RAAC just sending them out knowing that there was a problem. Sure, lets just send them out and screw over all our customers, while we open ourselves up to all kinds of legal issues and additional expenses that could bankrupt the company Yeah, that makes lots of sense.

 

As I said, everyone needs to calm down, and let the ATF and Importers work it out. I will post a new thread from the ATF booth and let everyone kn ow what their response is, and how the situation is going to be fixed.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

And the Saiga saga continues...

 

Could someone please post a pic of one of these "special" new S-12s? As easy as it is to tell the difference between a 22" and a 19" at first glance, I'm having a real hard time believing a 12ga with a 17.2" barrel was not blatantly obvious at very first glance. As many SBSs as Tony has seen I can understand him not catching it right away but damn! One would have to be mildly retarded or just giddy at the sight of these long awaited S-12s not to notice. As was said before, it was ATF's own mistake that let it go this far because they didn't inspect them thoroughly so they should not have a big problem with letting things go away quietly with some modifications.

 

Hey Pvt Pyle could you please do us all a favor and ask them another question while you have them right there in front of you?

Exactly what part of the Saiga shotgun do they consider to be the gas piston?? This is of major concern for people who convert their Saigas and want to use foreign furniture.

[pesterbox 0]

SON OF A BITCH.....I have one inbound to my ffl dealer right now from FBMG.....guess I need to contact FBMG about returning it before the transferr

[/quote

 

AKOK, I have one inbound to my dealer also. It comes in Monday. I am going to get them to ship it back to THE GUN SOURCE before we do the transfer. Pesterbox.

I will probably be selling all of my accessories for the shotgun in the near future, which total $565.00

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Hmmm what kind of accs.?

[pesterbox 0]

You know if the fix is to permanantly weld a flash-hider or choke on, it doesn't do people like me a heck of a lot of good to have bought $162.00 worth of chokes to use as I was going to screw on a flash-hider with the 8 round mag for defense and go to the chokes and the 2 round for hunting. People forget that everyone getting one of these is not having it converted.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

I could make a threaded extension that could be permanently mounted and have threads to still use the chokes.

[ozone_00 3]

SON OF A BITCH.....I have one inbound to my ffl dealer right now from FBMG.....guess I need to contact FBMG about returning it before the transferr

[/quote

 

AKOK, I have one inbound to my dealer also. It comes in Monday. I am going to get them to ship it back to THE GUN SOURCE before we do the transfer. Pesterbox.

I will probably be selling all of my accessories for the shotgun in the near future, which total $565.00

 

 

You might want to measure the barrel first, there is a slight chance that you got a good one.

Edited February 11, 2006 by ozone_00

[StarLynx 0]

My opinion of what would be REALLY kewl is to get Tony to go ahead & make it a SBS....then thread it for adaption to an extension...w/external threads...that way you have the choice of using it as a Tactical SBS. .or a Longer barreled hunting/sporting skeet application..& still be able to use the Factory chokes...

[hk4me 0]

For those of you who feel like this -> please refer to my previous post in this thread.

 

Thank you and have a nice day

[Wolverine 10,360]

I sent a money order out early Friday for a new S-12 before I saw this thread later in the day. I think I will call the dealer and cancel. I wanted to use the threads and chokes. Not all of these will get fixed by Tony and I don't want to get a S-12 that was "fixed" by some hack that should be on a cutting and wrecking crew if you know what I mean.

 

As for RAA knowingly selling these, BATF's initial position will be RAA does indeed have a problem as the importer and either knew or should have known that the weapons they put into the stream of commerce were NFA weapons and inconsistent with their license. In the end BATF will likely permit a single solution fix of welding on an extension. A solution I don't want. Why have a threaded barrel and a handful of chokes you can't use or get the benefit of?

 

After waiting a year+ this guy, like some others here, is not real happy.

 

Wolverine

[Pointer 21]

Hmmm what kind of accs.?

 

Cobra,got ya drooling already I was thinking the same thing we sure are Saiga hoars

I was going to get another S-12 later maybe in the next shipment,plan was to cut the barrel down to 16" and silver soder a 2 1/4" brake on anyway.I was going to contact Tony to see if he could make a slip over brake without threads,guess theres going to be a real market now.

[kogashuko 17]

PvtPile, any word on what that ATF said?

[frick 3]

I will be really surprised if the BATFE allows these to float around there, in illegal form, why would they want to be nice to people that are in violation of the law, even if it wasnt their fault?

 

One of my SAR 1 customers had bought one that was double tapping, and his first thought was "Wow, I should keep this", then when I explained that it could blow up in his face because it could fire out of battery, he agreed to send it back to the distributor.

 

Technically, it may be defective, but if they (BATFE) get it to double tap, you own a machinegun.

 

And if they take the time to prove a defective firearm is illegal, do you really expect lenience when its illegal from the time it hit the shore?

 

Again, you all are free to do as you wish, but if it was my ass, it would be back in the box and sent back immediately, its not worth the trouble over one inch of barrel length.

 

Oh, the barrel extension on my M92 Krinkov just fell off, do you think BATFE will allow me to leave it that way until the paperwork clears with a promise NOT to prosecute me?

 

Think about it.