Any of you win this 12c?

[saltydecimator 482]

I been eyeballin it but went for quite a bit more than I wanted to spend. $1275. Good price? Hesse/Vulcan touched it.

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=476960696

[Mullet Man 2,114]

22 or 24" barrel? Were there factory long barrels in C configuration? Price doesn't seem completely outrageous, considering.

[saltydecimator 482]

I'm unsure on history, and length. Pretty long. Don't think it would make a very good "police" gun with. 24" barrel. Try pullin that outtA your console!

 

I would wanna chop barrel, therefore destroying it's originality

Maybe riot control stuff but prob want pump for cycling the bags

[storm6490 2,768]

Fuck! I missed it! I had my left nut at the ready. Some day.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Stryker0946

[gunfun 3,931]

Maybe riot control stuff but prob want pump for cycling the bags

 

I've never been sold on that as a necessity.

 

[setting aside that firing a weapon on duty is a rarity, let's consider the most likely situations in which you might need to...] 1) how often do you really use bean bags or rubber shot as a cop? 2) if you know you are using weak shells of any kind, you can reach under and rack the action almost as fast a pump anyway.  

 

IMO, it seems silly to handicap 95% plus of the theoretical use of the gun by adding a slower, more human failure prone pump action in order to be infinitesimally faster for the possible <5% situation.

 

It's an illusory advantage or disadvantage depending on how you look at it. I once had some really weak shells made for shooting out of a break action for some new girls. We were shooting informal trap. It turned out they liked recoil, so the box sat around the staging area. I inadvertently loaded up the S12 mags with them. After the first one failed to cycle my action, I realized my mistake. Rather than unload them, I chose to shoot them. I had no trouble shooting a few doubles that way. -YMMV

[storm6490 2,768]

GF, you have good points on the pump action. There is one advantage of a pump over an auto loader and that is dependability. Riot guns need to always work and be simple to operate and maintain. When I think riot, I think prison not patrol car. Anyway, It's an easy weapon to learn how to shoot safe for a first timer or your average officer who can't shoot for shit. They are very easy to unload and clear. I think this is the reason it's still used by police military and homeowners to this day. Even if an outfit uses auto loaders, they still keep a conspicuously marked or painted pump for rubber slugs, bags and dragons breath!

 

I think this was sold after the bullshit ban as a sporting shotgun. The earlier models that did sell were cut to length.

22 or 24" barrel? Were there factory long barrels in C configuration? Price doesn't seem completely outrageous, considering.

I was told these were all imported long and were cut to length. Company sold to cops not shops and purged the stuff as it was a hard sell and the AWB expired.

 

The sticker on that box alone is worth a box of shells! Classic!

 

That's what I get for going offline for a few days. Never again gunstroker, never again.

[gunfun 3,931]

GF, you have good points on the pump action. There is one advantage of a pump over an auto loader and that is dependability. Riot guns need to always work and be simple to operate and maintain. 

 

IMO a spring is always more consistent and reliable than the muscles driving a human forearm. It never gets excited or stressed out. People talk in reverent tones of the reliability of pump guns, but truthfully, I see a lot of people bobble them, including trained individuals. It is highly vulnerable to short stroking, failure to hold the pump release just right, failure to move the pump at the right speed, failure to hold the action vertical. Pumps are not controlled round feeders and they are as sensitive to variances in ammo shape as anything else. They just add a human to the mechanical operation to make it less consistent.

 

When people have a cycling issue with their pump gun, they say something like "well the gun is absolutely reliable, that was my fault." -- Even if they were right, they've identified a major weakness in the system. A failure is still a failure whether it was a mechanical failure or an interface failure.

 

If I were trying to design a pump action, it would still use a spring for the forward stroke. The slide would push the bolt carrier back. Once it was pulled back far enough, the bolt would automatically disengage and shoot forward in a snappy way, ready to fire as soon as in battery. This would make it significantly more consistent than they are now. Pump guns are prone to issues with the shell jostling around while sitting on the lifter. If you've seen slow-mo, those shells are pinballing up and down and side to side all over the place as that lifter flips up. Making this faster and more consistent will reduce opportunity for the shell to get far out of alignment.

[gunfun 3,931]

* As for simple to maintain, The S12 does a dance and a jig on top of either of the two dominant pump platforms. (& the runners up too) Those are kind of a nuisance to disassemble and reassemble. It's doable for sure, but I don't see anyone field stripping an 870 by feel in the dark and reassembling it in under a minute. That's a piece of cake with a kalashnikov design.

 

This guy is faster than most, but that is clearly an operation for home, not something to do in a hurry in a bad situation. If you had an action full of mucky goop, reaching inside to clean it out would not be easy. You'd pretty much need a hose and some picks.

 

[storm6490 2,768]

I noticed quite the opposite in the army. The pump shotguns were easy to clean and easier to get running if you had a failure. New shooters will be better off with a pump as well. It's safer and easier to check and I have yet to see anybody fumble a reliable pump action shotgun with very basic training. A saiga would be great for tactical type shotgun but the pump action has always been sort of a backup, a defensive or less than lethal tool in the military, prisons, police and home defense. There are entire programs modeled after pump actions for this reason. My bear swatter is a pump, my coyote killer is a saiga. We will have to agree to disagree.

[Vance665 225]

The first successful pump was designed in 1897 or 1912 depending on your point of view. The arguement could have been made that a double or single barrel was proven and the new technology of the pump was too complicated, hard to clean and shouldn't be imposed on people already well versed in breech loaders.

 

At some point new technology (from 1947) will make its way into enough peoples hands that it can be appreciated and adopted. History tells us that time frame is atleast one generation if not two or three.

[MR_22 35]

Why the designation of "FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY"?

 

Being from 2001, this was apparently banned for civilian use during the 1994-2004 "Clinton Scary-Gun Ban," but what about it made it banned? Too many scary-looking features? Pistol grip and folding stock maybe? (I'm SO GLAD that's over.)

[gunfun 3,931]

It was partly banned because american gun companies hawking 100 year old tech couldn't be bothered to fight for our rights to buy their cheap, modern competition.

[patriot 7,197]

Hesse/Vulcan touched it?

 

RUN AWAY!

[gunfun 3,931]

Hesse/Vulcan touched it?

 

RUN AWAY!

 

What's the story?

[gunfun 3,931]

Nevermind. Google refreshed my memory. Importing probably isn't' enough for him to have harmed it.