HB of CJ 1,263 Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) Still not clear what has happened. Perhaps somebody on this Excellent Forum will enlighten us? Seems the august BATFE did seize 3000 unserialized Stag Arms AR15 lower receivers. They later gave most of them back? The BATFE says Stag waited too long before numbering the freshly built lowers. Stag says it was just a glitch in scheduling, vacations and mis communication. How long does a gun manufacture have to stamp a lower after it is made? And how far along the manufacturing process? I for one can see having a couple of "make ups" in the system. Why the raid now? Is this important? Could be any number of reasons, but good old silly stupid me here believes that when it comes to bully Federal Agencies, nothing is left to chance. They are that 400 pound Gorilla. They can do anything. Could we be seeing a pattern of increased illegal behavior by the Federal Government in general? Yikes! Time for a Gorilla Joke. Where does a 200 pound Gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants. Where does a 300 pound Gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants and he may sit on you. Where does a 400 pound Gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants, he may sit on you ... because ... he dislikes you ... and we let him! Ouch! Oh boy. HB of CJ (old coot) humm ... Edited May 20, 2015 by HB of CJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Where does an 800lb gorilla shit? I bet most of you can answer that. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 A bear and a gorilla meet in the woods. Each is holding a roll of toilet paper... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Most engraving is done on an engraving mill. It uses a small carbide cutter that spins something like 50,000 RPM. Most normal mills only do about 7-10K rpm so they take an eternity to engrave anything... Having 3,000+ unmarked receivers does look suspicious, they know better than to get that far ahead of themselves. Other than the legal danger it may put the company.. 100 receivers is almost nothing.. I'm sure their scrap bin has more than that in it.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Most engraving is done on an engraving mill. It uses a small carbide cutter that spins something like 50,000 RPM. Most normal mills only do about 7-10K rpm so they take an eternity to engrave anything... Having 3,000+ unmarked receivers does look suspicious, they know better than to get that far ahead of themselves. Other than the legal danger it may put the company.. 100 receivers is almost nothing.. I'm sure their scrap bin has more than that in it.. Is it normal to finish the rest of the processing before putting the serials on? Perhaps they didn't have the cash to file all the form 1s and where planning to post date them or something. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Just think of how many people could've been killed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 A bear and a gorilla meet in the woods. Each is holding a roll of toilet paper... not the way I heard the story or the way the government works. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Most engraving is done on an engraving mill. It uses a small carbide cutter that spins something like 50,000 RPM. Most normal mills only do about 7-10K rpm so they take an eternity to engrave anything... Having 3,000+ unmarked receivers does look suspicious, they know better than to get that far ahead of themselves. Other than the legal danger it may put the company.. 100 receivers is almost nothing.. I'm sure their scrap bin has more than that in it.. Is it normal to finish the rest of the processing before putting the serials on? Perhaps they didn't have the cash to file all the form 1s and where planning to post date them or something. I would assume so.. Serials normally go on after QC check is complete, If a part is damaged in the final stages it just gets crushed and never numbered. Then it goes through metal finishing. That way when your filling out your paper work you just use the sequence feature and it fills of the serial numbers. Simpler and prevents paper work issues... However if your engraver mill guy is going to go on vacation, then it would be logical to send the other mill operator on vacation as well.. That way you don't have a pile of questionable firearms parts sitting around. I doubt stag arms has that kind of money issues.. If they did its bad management. I don't think post dating to evade taxes is a wise legal defense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Most engraving is done on an engraving mill. It uses a small carbide cutter that spins something like 50,000 RPM. Most normal mills only do about 7-10K rpm so they take an eternity to engrave anything... Having 3,000+ unmarked receivers does look suspicious, they know better than to get that far ahead of themselves. Other than the legal danger it may put the company.. 100 receivers is almost nothing.. I'm sure their scrap bin has more than that in it.. Is it normal to finish the rest of the processing before putting the serials on? Perhaps they didn't have the cash to file all the form 1s and where planning to post date them or something. I would assume so.. Serials normally go on after QC check is complete, If a part is damaged in the final stages it just gets crushed and never numbered. Then it goes through metal finishing. That way when your filling out your paper work you just use the sequence feature and it fills of the serial numbers. Simpler and prevents paper work issues... However if your engraver mill guy is going to go on vacation, then it would be logical to send the other mill operator on vacation as well.. That way you don't have a pile of questionable firearms parts sitting around. I doubt stag arms has that kind of money issues.. If they did its bad management. I don't think post dating to evade taxes is a wise legal defense. I wasn't thinking it was wise. People do stupid stuff. You wouldn't believe how many people do shenanigans with co-mingling client funds when they know the money will come in to cover it. I mean actually profitable businesses getting sloppy or taking foolish risks/ borderline dishonest stuff. Everyone knows better and it seldom makes sense, but it happens mostly to stable businesses that feel safe about cutting corners. Also sensible business practice is seldom what regulatory agencies are concerned about. BATF is not interested in supporting the industry it regulates so much as controlling, and setting up enough traps to scare off those who are interested in getting in on the ground level. That's why i was asking what practice is. I know as a business owner, I would only want to register them as they are sold, and not count them as a firearm until they are going out the door. BATFE may require something far less reasonable. i.e. the stuff with Ares Armament and their "80%" lowers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Remains to be seen what the final outcome of this is. Stag was stupid and there will be a penalty but they weren't shipping unserialized receivers and didn't plan to so the penalty should fit the infraction. Note: I didn't say "crime" because this is an infraction. A violation of a rule. A crime is something that harms someone and 99.9% of laws are victimless infractions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Usually the difference is defined by the level of legal jeopardy, and unfortunately the standards of proof required. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) I'm not arguing semantics. I'm stating fact. A crime is something which causes harm. A crime is something which is wrong in and of itself. Malum in se. Something which harms no one is not a crime. It isn't a crime to make a machine gun. It's a violation of the rules. It is prohibited by the masters. Malum prohibitum. Obviously the consequences of violating some rules can be severe. Edited May 23, 2015 by Darth Saigus 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GregM1 241 Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 Still not clear what has happened. here is a pretty good write up on what happened, but to summarize, the engraver was on vacation when the atf first appeared for inspection. came back a week later and it wasnt done yet, so they seized the lowers. http://fishgame.com/2015/05/atf-confiscate-3000-guns-from-stag-arms-over-nfa-violations/ 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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