Saiga-12 in the movie The Terminator?

[MR_22 35]

OK, this is kind of weird. Over the weekend, I was watching The Terminator from 1984 again with Arnold Schwarzenegger and I caught a reference I've never heard before.

 

When the Terminator walks into the gun store, the first thing we hear him ask to look at is a "12-gauge autoloader" (although he is already inserting a magazine into what I think is an AR-18).

 

The idiot gun salesman (idiot, because he leaves 12-gauge shot shells on the counter within easy reach of customers) brings down a semi-automatic 12-gauge shotgun from his rack, and he seems to say, "That's a Saiga. It can go pump or auto."

 

But wait a minute. This is 1984. What semi-autoloader Saigas were available back then? The shotgun is listed in the IMFDB movie-gun database as a Spas-12 (seen here: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/The_Terminator ).

 

So what is it? A Spas-12 or a Saiga? (Info here on the Spas-12, which matches what I see in the movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchi_SPAS-12)

 

Did the gun salesman really say Saiga? Here's the video clip:

 

 

Even if Saigas were available in 1984, which I am seriously questioning, would a semi-automatic shotgun made in Russia be available anywhere in the U.S. during the height of the cold war? It's hard to see the shotgun in the video, but here is a screenshot I made from the video. The shotgun has a skeletonized stock and appears to have a 5-round magazine inserted. When we see the Terminator dry-firing the shotgun just before using it on the gun salesman, it doesn't appear to have a magazine inserted. So what's the deal?

 

I'd love if somebody could shed some light on this issue. My curiosity is certainly piqued.

Edited June 15, 2015 by MR_22

[gunfun 3,930]

It was very clearly a spas 12. Hence the description, "pump or auto" He's shown holding it toward the end of the clip, with the weird hook stock thing clearly visible.

[MR_22 35]

It was very clearly a spas 12. Hence the description, "pump or auto" He's shown holding it toward the end of the clip, with the weird hook stock thing clearly visible.

I agree. But doesn't he say, "That's a Saiga"?

 

EDIT: OK, after repeatedly listening to the clip from the salesman, I think he's saying, "That's Italian." I believe the mystery is solved. Kind of freaked me out there for awhile. It's an auditory illusion. I can force it to sound either way in my head by thinking about it as I listen. That's funny. I just heard what I was expecting to hear when he asked for a "12-gauge autoloader." Hilarious!

Edited June 15, 2015 by MR_22

[MR_22 35]

Here's a better shot not taken from a crappy YouTube video. It's clearly a SPAS-12, although it was not called that in 1984.

 

http://www.imfdb.org/images/7/7d/Miscte4-1-.jpg

Edited June 15, 2015 by MR_22

[JoeAK 337]

Yup, he said "That's Italian".

 

I don't think the saiga-12 was even designed until the 90's.

[gunfun 3,930]

Pretty sure the first ones were imported in '98. They can't have been designed much before then, since USA was clearly intended as a primary market from the base design. After all, they put the stupid rock and lock lugs onto the mags to fit with American "AK purist" nostalgia, after they already had the "police" style mags.

[SGL 530]

Pretty sure the first ones were imported in '98. They can't have been designed much before then, since USA was clearly intended as a primary market from the base design. After all, they put the stupid rock and lock lugs onto the mags to fit with American "AK purist" nostalgia, after they already had the "police" style mags.

 

It's not as though rock n' lock doesn't have merit.   It's a little slower and takes more coordination than the magwell models, but has the benefit of an extremely solid lock up.  With a straight insert magazine, it is possible to think that it is properly seated only to have it fall out after the first shot.   Personally, I really like the rock n' lock Saigas, both for this benefit, and the consistency of movement with other Kalashnikov rifles.

 

I can't argue against the fact that the "police style" are quicker, but not by that much if you practice often with the rock n' locks.

[gunfun 3,930]

Rock and locks are equally vulnerable to that problem. I've had it happen, and seen it happen. If the rear lug is tight, the latch tab might not fully engage. Or if you just rush it.

[SGL 530]

Rock and locks are equally vulnerable to that problem. I've had it happen, and seen it happen. If the rear lug is tight, the latch tab might not fully engage. Or if you just rush it.

 

I've never had a rock n' lock drop out of the gun before, but I recognize that you have both styles so you're in a better position to make the comparison.

[gunfun 3,930]

Two guns makes me an expert! 

 

Or just s schmo with an opinion. 

 

 

That opinion also includes the though that if you are concerned about a straight insert mag needing a more positive click at lockup, that could be easily done with a big latch that moves far, and has a heavy spring. A seat belt buckle has a pretty positive click and goes in straight... the positive click is a function of the latch which engages the mag, and is a factor independent from whether the mag is designed straight insert or rock and lock. I am with you in liking a very positive click to reduce the possibility of confusion. 

 

 

For some reason my cousin's S12 drops the SGM mag I have. When I look at it, the lock up seems to be indistinguishable from the other mags we have or in my gun. It doesn't happen with cSSpecs or promag mags, or MD20. No doubt if I had more time to look closely at it, I would find something explaining it, but the mag does lock in with a positive click and a fully engaged release tab. I've also had factory fives get grit or something on the lug and seem locked in, but drop with the first shot. It made me look less cool once.  

 

I don't doubt that I have dropped a magwell mag once or twice, but I don't recall any specific instances. When other people try it, sometimes they manage to insert the mag in a way that makes a mechanical bind and fight pushing it up. It always mystifies me how that happens. As near as I can tell, they are basically doing the "rock" motion while pushing up and just get a friction bind with the magwell. A couple times people did that and dropped the mag, but they didn't get so far as taking a shot. They drop free empty, so a full mag falls as soon as you let go if you don't click it home.

[gunfun 3,930]

I just decided to look and see what they were doing. I think I finally figured it out. Probably bad instructions from me, actually. I say "just push straight up, until you feel a click." However, while straight force in the right direction easily funnels the mag in, it does rock slightly as it clicks. The final rock isn't the issue, it's the starting angle. "Straight up" translates as 90* to the floor of the receiver. Really, if we treat the curved mag as though it were a straight line, it should be inserted more like 80* or even a little more forward to funnel in. 90* or any forward lean will cause the front of the mag or shell to hit the front of the magwell and bind, even if it is just barely inside. That's what they are doing. It always seemed too easy to goof up, but ergonomics are funny.

[Gaddis 1,689]

I don't think the saiga-12 was even designed until the 90's.

Or maybe time travel is truly possible?

 

But yeah, it obviously was a SPAS.

[MR_22 35]

 

 

 

 

I don't think the saiga-12 was even designed until the 90's.

Or maybe time travel is truly possible?

Haha, perfect! So, 1984 + 40 years = is 2024. Somebody came back ten years to 2014, snatched up a Saiga-12, and took it back 30 more years, so the Terminator could use it. OK, I'd buy it. Makes perfect sense!

 

Except how did they return with weaponry to 1984? You have to go back naked (I think James Cameron just wanted a reason to show Arnie's butt, but what do I know?). Speaking of butts.... the metal skeleton of the Terminator DID make it back in time, because, apparently, it was covered with flesh; so maybe the weapon had to be inside the body to go back in time.... Um, never mind. I ain't goin' there.

Edited June 15, 2015 by MR_22

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Holy hell, Arnold "Keistered" a Saiga12 so he could travel back in time with it, to kill John and Sara Connor.

[horatio 515]

Total thread hijack but on the topic of terminators how did the t1000 (terminator 2) travel back in time? He wasn't human or flesh. He was liquid metal. Never did get that one.

[Gaddis 1,689]

And if terminators are so perfect, how come Kristanna Loken had those freckles on her tit? (not that I'm complaining or anything).

 

You guys are starting to overanalyze (heh, "anal" ) shit like me.  Doing that too much will eventually drive you crazy.

[WhiskeyMinion 300]

I've never had a rock n' lock drop out of the gun before, but I recognize that you have both styles so you're in a better position to make the comparison.

 

 

You've never fired 3" mags from an SGM 12 rounder then haha. 1st shot broke the front lug clean off two different mags

[saltydecimator 482]

^beeen there done that...weaaaaaak!  they did send me a new one even though it was my fualt (mag body)  good on em!

[MR_22 35]

Total thread hijack but on the topic of terminators how did the t1000 (terminator 2) travel back in time? He wasn't human or flesh. He was liquid metal. Never did get that one.

He went back in time using money. The script called for something new and fancy, way better than Arnold ever was, because they wanted to make more money. Hollywood screws the rules when money is involved for sequels!

 

(Reese also destroyed the time machine in the first one, so I guess Cyberdyne made a better one that could send back molten aluminum Terminators!)

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

To get back on track, the SPAS-12 is Hollywood's favorite shotgun, especially in the '90s.

 

 

I still see them in new movies all the time and they've been banned from importation for like 20 years.

[G O B 3,516]

Hollywood uses the same props from the same prop houses over and over.

[MR_22 35]

Hollywood uses the same props from the same prop houses over and over.

I still want a stainless Ruger Mini-14 with folding stock because of the A-Team.

[gunfun 3,930]

 

Hollywood uses the same props from the same prop houses over and over.

I still want a stainless Ruger Mini-14 with folding stock because of the A-Team.

 

 

 

Hollywood uses the same props from the same prop houses over and over.

I still want a stainless Ruger Mini-14 with folding stock because of the A-Team.

 

I mostly remember them with stuff like mak 10s. Was the gun you described pivotal? Also, now the mini's accuracy reputation makes sense.

[G O B 3,516]

The A-team proved that you can't hit shit with a mini 14!

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

Hollywood uses the same props from the same prop houses over and over.

 

I was just sorta pointing out the hipocracy that the lefties that wanted it banned the most are the same ones carrying its legacy for 20 more years.

 

 

The A-team proved that you can't hit shit with a mini 14!

 

Beat me to it.. The only direct hit I ever saw them register was with watermelons after cutting up that sweet GMC in a montage to become a fruit launcher.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Maxwelhse

[Capt Nemo 882]

I've got a factory 5 rounder that likes to drop.  Can't find anything dimensionally different with it.  Though it's gotten better with use.

 

Out of the 10 factory mags I have it's the only one I've had problems with.