New RWC Saiga-12, a few questions.

[boomka 40]

Just got in a new RWC Tactical Saiga-12, a very brief backyard session revealed it ran 00 buck, steel BB and short brass 7 1/2 without issue on the #1 setting.

Now the questions:

1- I have 4 gas ports, what's the best way to keep them clean and open?

2- The muzzle brake is said to be "welded on" and was wondering if it might actually be silver soldered like my Daewoo was? I really want an AK style elevated front sight but it will never slip on over the large brake.

3- Was wanting a choke but the pattern at about 40-50 yds seems about right with all the loads I was testing.

4- Does anyone make a last round bolt hold-open?

5- HOW DO I GET THE FREAKING FORE-END OFF!! lol wanting to add a quad rail but can't get the hand guard off. Saw a video where the guy removed the swivel screw and slammed the barrel end down on the floor while holding the hand guard, tried it myself but nothing moved.

 

My impression so far is pertty great value for the current "ban" conditions, the build seems clean and well done and was 922 compliant right out of the box for under $1000 after shipping and transfer costs.

Pretty happy with it and will be adding a quad-rail and drum after a little more testing.

[JDeko 792]

That is a really killer deal, I'm pretty jelly I bought mine a year ago and paid more for something that was in the "sporter" config.

[Heartbreaker 1,085]

Every now and then just unscrew the gas plug and dump out the crud, then use a small pick or wire to poke through the gas holes if they are blocked.

 

Try pulling the handguard down and wiggling it, you can also stick a thin flat-blade screwdriver between the receiver and handguard to lever it out some.

 

For a cheap and easy bho, you can cut a notch in the safety lever to hold the charging handle in the open position. Simple and effective.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Heartbreaker

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Quad rail will make it very nose heavy, adds quite a bit of bulk, and increases the opportunity for the weapon to snag on things.

[boomka 40]

Got the hanguard off very late last night, the trick was pulling it out slightly so it dissengaged from the notch where the sling swivel seated, then pulling it off the end of the barrel was a snap.

It already comes with the small tab BHO which basically does the same thing as the notched safety ( have one of those on my 47) was wanting an auto last round hold but even my 47 will only do that with the chinese mags.

10-4 on the gas plug dump, even after less than 10 rounds I found some chunks in there.

BTW here is the gun and where I got it only I purchased it off Gunbroker.
http://sovereignguns.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=2451

Thanks for the help!

[gibsonsg05 7]

Congrats! I recently purchased one as well. I love that it's ready to go right out the box. I ran 30 rounds through it without 1 issue. It appears to me that the muzzle brake is threaded and welded into place. It has to be permanently attached because the barrel is shorter than 18" without a brake. The brake makes it legal length but must be permanently affixed. The IZ109T is 18.25" with the muzzle brake attached. 

 

[boomka 40]

Been trying to run the cheap wally world short brass Winchester white box ( IIRC they call it Super Target or something ) but it always short shucks, even on setting two. It ALMOST reaches the ejector but not quite, sometimes the shell hangs and sometimes it rechambers.

What's the best remedy? I have mirror polished the cams, the bottom of the bolt and the hammer face. It SEEMS to be hanging right where the bolt ( not the carrier ) runs over the hammer face. Hand cycling seems like buttah, but there IS a resistance when that bolt bottom crosses the hammer.

[gunfun 3,931]

Been trying to run the cheap wally world short brass Winchester white box ( IIRC they call it Super Target or something ) but it always short shucks, even on setting two. It ALMOST reaches the ejector but not quite, sometimes the shell hangs and sometimes it rechambers.

What's the best remedy? I have mirror polished the cams, the bottom of the bolt and the hammer face. It SEEMS to be hanging right where the bolt ( not the carrier ) runs over the hammer face. Hand cycling seems like buttah, but there IS a resistance when that bolt bottom crosses the hammer.

 

DO NOT MESS with the CAMS! That stuff affects timing. Timing is important, since it keeps the explosions inside the barrel. Leave that alone.

 

1) Look at the numbers on the ammo, not so much general descriptions or brands. (i.e. ignore irrelevant factors like brass height, whether it is buckshot, slugs, or what number of shot size it is.)

 

See this chart for what will work:

 

 

If your stuff was in the pink zone of lameness, there's your problem. If it was in the 3 to 3.25 dr eq range, then you (or someone pro) need to deal with the friction caused by the shape of the hammer, and maybe later ports.

 

2) polish does very little on the hammer, etc. Shape makes a huge difference to reliability.

 

3) Stop and read this before you touch anything else. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/82039-not-cycling-high-brass-help-a-newbie-out/&do=findComment&comment=825101

 

Either do it systematically and avoid the locking lugs, camming lug, and channel, or have a pro do  the work. Messing around with stuff you only half know like that is trouble.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

I'd like to see similar charts for other, more "traditional" 12 ga semi autos..

[gunfun 3,931]

I'd like to see similar charts for other, more "traditional" 12 ga semi autos..

Same chart works, just move the threshold. Also maybe put a ceiling on it if it runs very low.  Come to think of it, this should probably have a different window for where you should move up to the magnum setting(s). 

[SGL 530]

 

 

GF Dram Chart2.jpg

 

If your stuff was in the pink zone of lameness, there's your problem. If it was in the 3 to 3.25 dr eq range, then you (or someone pro) need to deal with the friction caused by the shape of the hammer, and maybe later ports.

 

2) polish does very little on the hammer, etc. Shape makes a huge difference to reliability.

 

3) Stop and read this before you touch anything else. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/82039-not-cycling-high-brass-help-a-newbie-out/&do=findComment&comment=825101

 

Either do it systematically and avoid the locking lugs, camming lug, and channel, or have a pro do  the work. Messing around with stuff you only half know like that is trouble.

 

 

I can't count how many times I've seen GF post this, but this is probably the most helpful information on this whole forum. 

[boomka 40]

 

Been trying to run the cheap wally world short brass Winchester white box ( IIRC they call it Super Target or something ) but it always short shucks, even on setting two. It ALMOST reaches the ejector but not quite, sometimes the shell hangs and sometimes it rechambers.

What's the best remedy? I have mirror polished the cams, the bottom of the bolt and the hammer face. It SEEMS to be hanging right where the bolt ( not the carrier ) runs over the hammer face. Hand cycling seems like buttah, but there IS a resistance when that bolt bottom crosses the hammer.

 

DO NOT MESS with the CAMS! That stuff affects timing. Timing is important, since it keeps the explosions inside the barrel. Leave that alone.

 

1) Look at the numbers on the ammo, not so much general descriptions or brands. (i.e. ignore irrelevant factors like brass height, whether it is buckshot, slugs, or what number of shot size it is.)

 

See this chart for what will work:

 

GF Dram Chart2.jpg

 

If your stuff was in the pink zone of lameness, there's your problem. If it was in the 3 to 3.25 dr eq range, then you (or someone pro) need to deal with the friction caused by the shape of the hammer, and maybe later ports.

 

2) polish does very little on the hammer, etc. Shape makes a huge difference to reliability.

 

3) Stop and read this before you touch anything else. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/82039-not-cycling-high-brass-help-a-newbie-out/&do=findComment&comment=825101

 

Either do it systematically and avoid the locking lugs, camming lug, and channel, or have a pro do  the work. Messing around with stuff you only half know like that is trouble.

 

Cams were only polished, no real material was removed, since it's a brand new gun I think I'm in the clear on that one.

The troublesome ammo is Win "Super Target" 1145 velocity, 1 1/8oz of shot  and 2 3/4DE, so outside the "run zone" in that chart ( thanks for that btw ).

I'll double check my ports after work.

Where does the "bulk pack" come in at, energy wise?

Edited July 22, 2015 by boomka

[SGL 530]

 

 

Been trying to run the cheap wally world short brass Winchester white box ( IIRC they call it Super Target or something ) but it always short shucks, even on setting two. It ALMOST reaches the ejector but not quite, sometimes the shell hangs and sometimes it rechambers.

What's the best remedy? I have mirror polished the cams, the bottom of the bolt and the hammer face. It SEEMS to be hanging right where the bolt ( not the carrier ) runs over the hammer face. Hand cycling seems like buttah, but there IS a resistance when that bolt bottom crosses the hammer.

 

DO NOT MESS with the CAMS! That stuff affects timing. Timing is important, since it keeps the explosions inside the barrel. Leave that alone.

 

1) Look at the numbers on the ammo, not so much general descriptions or brands. (i.e. ignore irrelevant factors like brass height, whether it is buckshot, slugs, or what number of shot size it is.)

 

See this chart for what will work:

 

GF Dram Chart2.jpg

 

If your stuff was in the pink zone of lameness, there's your problem. If it was in the 3 to 3.25 dr eq range, then you (or someone pro) need to deal with the friction caused by the shape of the hammer, and maybe later ports.

 

2) polish does very little on the hammer, etc. Shape makes a huge difference to reliability.

 

3) Stop and read this before you touch anything else. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/82039-not-cycling-high-brass-help-a-newbie-out/&do=findComment&comment=825101

 

Either do it systematically and avoid the locking lugs, camming lug, and channel, or have a pro do  the work. Messing around with stuff you only half know like that is trouble.

 

Where does the "bulk pack" come in at, energy wise?

 

 

My local Walmart usually stocks both Federal and Winchester bulk packs.  Both are listed at 3 dram and should run fine in a properly tuned gun.   I have had a lot better results with the Federal though.   It seems to be loaded a little hotter and has firmer hulls that are less likely to deform.  

[gunfun 3,931]

 

Where does the "bulk pack" come in at, energy wise?

 

 

 

That's the key question. They come in different levels.Some are in the pink zone. For most people, the 1 1/8 oz 1200 FPS (red square on the chart) bulk ammo from all brands will run well. The winchester universal/white box bulk packs are crappy quality and are often less than their claimed numbers. So a gun that runs RED SQUARE ammo from Rem, Federal, Herters, Estate, etc. might not run the winchester. Just print the chart and leave it in your glove box. Eventually you will just remember that for a given weight you have a minimum velocity. 1200 FPS for 1 1/8. For one ounce loads, 1235 FPS+, and so on. Winchester AA shells are excellent, but you still have to look at the numbers, not the brand. Federal ammo runs a little dirtier, but most people find that their saigas really like the cheap federal [red square], so it has become the de-facto baseline standard for testing.

 

The other thing is, that while I mostly make my own ammo now, I have occasionally bought shotgun shells. A fair amount of the time lately, individual boxes were slightly cheaper than the 100 or 250 packs per round. It's always worth taking a few seconds to do math. You probably have a calculator in your pocket anyway.

Edited July 23, 2015 by GunFun

[boomka 40]

I'll put that chart on my phone and check out ammo Friday.

Paper clip revealed tonight that the front port was clogged with something. The first three took the clip easily but the front port resisted at first then popped open, might have been some metal, might have been just a speck of gunpowder.  A quick peek down the bore revealed a small protrusion where the ports are, I'll run a brush down it and see what it is.

[gunfun 3,931]

Sounds like a drilling burr or a flake of chrome. A few shots down the bore will clean that out. Or a tornado brush.

[boomka 40]

Brushed it out and took a few shots, no change, will try some other cheap ammo this weekend, if I still get FTEs I'll do a mild bolt profile.

[Capt Nemo 882]

BE VERY CAREFUL ON CAM FACES!  METAL REMOVAL CAN CHANGE LOCK-UP OF THE BOLT!

 

I've had to smooth the cam path on all 5 of my S-12's to reduce friction during lock-up.  Machining of the cam paths can be rough, and smoothing out the high spots is needed to have the bolt cam move smoothly on the path.  An Arkansas shaping stone is needed to flatten the cut and polish the surface.  DO NOT USE A DREMEL TOOL!   DO NOT CHANGE THE ANGLE! 

 

 

Here's a couple pics of what can happen in a mistimed gun.  In this case, the barrel/bolt timing face was cut wrong at the factory forcing the carrier to do all the lock-up work.  Normally, the timing face on the bolt and the angle on the upper finger of the hood cause the bolt to rotate enough to align the cam with the locking path on the carrier, and then the carrier finishes the lock-up.  But in this case the bolt gets hammered by the carrier, which mushrooms both the carrier and bolt cam, and galls the locking path.  The carrier on the unlocking side been pounded .060" out of shape, and .040" on the locking side.  Smoothing the cam path and burr removal were needed.  This weapon has finally settled down to a happy medium and has stopped pounding up any more burrs or galling.  YOU COULD HAVE THIS HAPPEN TO YOUR WEAPON IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!

 

 

[boomka 40]

BE VERY CAREFUL ON CAM FACES!  METAL REMOVAL CAN CHANGE LOCK-UP OF THE BOLT!

 DO NOT USE A DREMEL TOOL!   DO NOT CHANGE THE ANGLE! 

 

 

 YOU COULD HAVE THIS HAPPEN TO YOUR WEAPON IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!

 

Or even if you DO know what you're doing since that one came from the factory like that.

 

I DID use a Dremel and everything is fine, just because I'm new HERE, doesn't mean I'm "new" to working metal, or machining, or welding, or silver soldering or any number of other activities. I designed and built my own motocross suspension systems ( front and rear ) back in the day, built my own stereo remote controls, bullpupped rifles and air rifles, successfully built my own "special muzzle devices", scratch-built my own skeletonized folding wire stock and numerous other things ALL before the internet, imagine that. Even a published aviation author, and stealth history writer.

I'm new to the Saiga, but not much else, ok I don't know my butt from a hole in the ground when it comes to computer networks lol.

Lets all just settle down and unharsh the 12 gauge groove and enjoy our love/hate relationship with the mighty Saiga!

[Capt Nemo 882]

Good!  You then know what's going on!  A lot of new folks don't!  My post was mainly aimed at them when they read this.

 

Have fun on your build!

 

I'm very wary on Dremel tools as they can remove a lot of material quickly, and a slip on something like this could be disasterous.  That's why I like going slow with Arkansas stones and numerous checks for fit.  I got lucky on the above gun as she beat herself into a working condition, and all I mainly did was clean up the mess, but it could have been worse.  Some of the damage in the pics was from overgassing due to a mis-machined factory plug that blocked the ports on the #1 setting forcing me to run hot 2 3/4" loads on #2.  This would cause breach flashing on hot loads.  I found the problem when I tried firing 3" shells on #1 and had ejection failures on every shot.  These guns can make you tear you're hair, but are a good learning experiance, and because of that, a lot of fun!

[boomka 40]

Good!  You then know what's going on!  A lot of new folks don't!  My post was mainly aimed at them when they read this.

 

Have fun on your build!

 

I'm very wary on Dremel tools as they can remove a lot of material quickly, and a slip on something like this could be disasterous.  That's why I like going slow with Arkansas stones and numerous checks for fit.  I got lucky on the above gun as she beat herself into a working condition, and all I mainly did was clean up the mess, but it could have been worse.  Some of the damage in the pics was from overgassing due to a mis-machined factory plug that blocked the ports on the #1 setting forcing me to run hot 2 3/4" loads on #2.  This would cause breach flashing on hot loads.  I found the problem when I tried firing 3" shells on #1 and had ejection failures on every shot.  These guns can make you tear you're hair, but are a good learning experiance, and because of that, a lot of fun!

No device has brought more joy or tragedy to the average household than a Dremel lol.

[Heartbreaker 1,085]

 

Good!  You then know what's going on!  A lot of new folks don't!  My post was mainly aimed at them when they read this.

 

Have fun on your build!

 

I'm very wary on Dremel tools as they can remove a lot of material quickly, and a slip on something like this could be disasterous.  That's why I like going slow with Arkansas stones and numerous checks for fit.  I got lucky on the above gun as she beat herself into a working condition, and all I mainly did was clean up the mess, but it could have been worse.  Some of the damage in the pics was from overgassing due to a mis-machined factory plug that blocked the ports on the #1 setting forcing me to run hot 2 3/4" loads on #2.  This would cause breach flashing on hot loads.  I found the problem when I tried firing 3" shells on #1 and had ejection failures on every shot.  These guns can make you tear you're hair, but are a good learning experiance, and because of that, a lot of fun!

 

No device has brought more joy or tragedy to the average household than a Dremel lol.

I beg to differ. Exhibit A: the Television. Exhibit B: the Soap Opera.

[boomka 40]

Well HEY, guess what:

Runs on Federal "Target Load" 3de, 1oz shot, 7 1/2 size, 1250fps!

Properly short shucks on setting 1, setting 2 offers full stroke when fired from the shoulder as well as when very limp-wristing it from the hip. Only hiccup was the last round didn't eject, got caught in the bolt half-in half-out.

Extra bonus is the Federal is the same price as WWB for now at wally world.

So now it runs every class ( steel, buck, and bird ), with no special pucks or valves, only some drag reduction and the proper ammo, only thing I haven't tried is slugs ( I haven't bought any yet ).

Next up is an exam of wear on the rails and some lube, yes LUBE, been running it nearly dry to sim a grungy condition and to show wear points early.

 

Are these things meant to run 3 inch magnums loads? I know it's Russian but that's still a lot of E=MC2 for an auto.

Thanks again for all the help guys, I could easily have spent an MD-20 drums worth of gimmic doo-dads and unicorn dust to try and get it running, when it was mostly just the ammo.

Next is an MD-20 and a grenade launcher lol.

[gunfun 3,931]

3" shells are just fine on setting #1. That's what it is there for. They will not fit in drum mags, and the 12 round mags may not lift 12  oz loads very reliably after the springs get old. Other than that, you are good to go. Lean into it, and let em go.

 

The automatic is the best part with heavy ammo. It soaks up a lot of that energy, so your shoulder doesn't have to. You'll find you can dump 15 pellet OOB max loads onto targets faster than your skilled buddy can do 9 pellet loads with his pumper of choice. The other thing you will find is that you will never have any reason to run neutered ammo, since you can shoot full power buckshot at the roughly same perceived recoil wimpy "LE" /"Tactical " is in a pump. 

 

I have taken 1 oz slugs at ~1400 FPS and gotten compettitive stage times vs guys running the same courses with ARs in .223. Of course they had less recoil, and a better shooter would have left me in the dust, but it still gives a notion of the advantage a reliable mag fed semi has, as well as the impressive capability. It's cool and all to nail a series of targets fast while moving and see the little 0.24" holes next to eachother, in the A zones. more cool to see the same thing with 0.679" holes, and the same times.

Or doing the same thing with my pet #4 Buck load of 22 pellets at ~1350-1400 FPS, seeing (44) 1/4" holes in the little plates that normall get only (2) 1/4" holes. - Yes, I know that those holes have less energy behind them as individuals, but still.

[boomka 40]

Yeah my 870 Marine Magnum gives quite a jolt with magnum loads, I don't know if you'll understand what I mean but it hurt so much I instantly started laughing from the massive energy dump! lol. I've seen first-hand what two rounds of 00 does at 100yds to a piece of plywood, low-vel or not, I wouldn't want that headed my way.

 

The Saiga is sort of fulfilling a wish I had many many years ago when I saw the man himself demonstrate the Atchison, very very impressive and changed my mind about the usefulness of a circa 20mm shoulder weapon on the battlefield.